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Colin88

US Grading vs UK Grading.....

46 posts in this topic

4 hours ago, coinkat said:

Does anyone think that what is next to A in HALF is a strike thru? It just looks too clean to be a gouge.  

 

It looks like a "Bag Mark", where one coin in a bag has come in contact with the reeded edge of another. It is pretty common, even on newly minted coins. :)

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Coins 728x90

9 hours ago, RLC35 said:

 

It looks like a "Bag Mark", where one coin in a bag has come in contact with the reeded edge of another. It is pretty common, even on newly minted coins. :)

If it was hit by another coin during the minting process I feel sorry for that coin .

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1 hour ago, Cliff said:

Showing my ignorance but what is a "strike thru" please?

Cliff

"Strike thru" or "strike through" occurs when an object comes between the die and blank. An outline of the object is then left on the coin surface after striking. 

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37 minutes ago, Sword said:

"Strike thru" or "strike through" occurs when an object comes between the die and blank. An outline of the object is then left on the coin surface after striking. 

Thank you

Cliff

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5 hours ago, ozjohn said:

If it was hit by another coin during the minting process I feel sorry for that coin .

Oz, Bagmarks are made inside a bag of coins, or when they are dropped into the collection container after striking, not during the minting process itself. 

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3 hours ago, RLC35 said:

Oz, Bagmarks are made inside a bag of coins, or when they are dropped into the collection container after striking, not during the minting process itself. 

This one seems a bit large to qualify as a bagmark which  IMO should be restricted to minor marks resulting from contact between coins as you describe.

As for strike thru. If you look at the coin in hand the "gouge" is brighter than the surrounding field indicating more recent damage. This probably has a bearing on the bagmark theory as well.

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Curious.It looks a little like the coin has been struck very hard by another edge on, and the edge milling has resulted in an imprint of the milling in the field.

Edited by DaveG38

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45 minutes ago, ozjohn said:

This one seems a bit large to qualify as a bagmark which  IMO should be restricted to minor marks resulting from contact between coins as you describe.

As for strike thru. If you look at the coin in hand the "gouge" is brighter than the surrounding field indicating more recent damage. This probably has a bearing on the bagmark theory as well.

Putting the reeded edge, of a like coin, up against the mark would show if it was a bag mark or not. btw...the bag mark is usually "new" looking, since it is exposing bare metal.

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1957 half crown with bag marks:

1957 half crown bag marks.jpg

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A close up scan of the "gouge" that may help. There is certainly some similarity between the marks on the 1957 half crown and the 1912 halfcrown however the marks under the Queen's eye and the next mark to the left have the appearance of flaws in the flan as the metal appears to be lifting despite the regularity of the marks, What I would call bag marks on this coin can be seen all over the coin as small scratches and dents.

img110.jpg

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38 minutes ago, ozjohn said:

A close up scan of the "gouge" that may help. There is certainly some similarity between the marks on the 1957 half crown and the 1912 halfcrown however the marks under the Queen's eye and the next mark to the left have the appearance of flaws in the flan as the metal appears to be lifting despite the regularity of the marks, What I would call bag marks on this coin can be seen all over the coin as small scratches and dents.

img110.jpg

 

We will never know.......

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The 1957 half crown shown above has clash marks from the dies coming together without planchet in between leaving details of obv.  on rev. and vice versa.These are NOT primarily bagmarks.

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3 hours ago, VickySilver said:

The 1957 half crown shown above has clash marks from the dies coming together without planchet in between leaving details of obv.  on rev. and vice versa.These are NOT primarily bagmarks.

Sorry to disagree, but those marks on the 1957 halfcrown are classic bagmarks and not evidence of die clashing.  The main reason being that the portrait is the deepest part of the die and thus protected from clash marks.  Clash marks can only appear on the shallowest part of the die ie the fields.

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4 hours ago, VickySilver said:

The 1957 half crown shown above has clash marks from the dies coming together without planchet in between leaving details of obv.  on rev. and vice versa.These are NOT primarily bagmarks.

Not as I understand it VS. These are marks from die clashing - all the marks that can be seen are attributable to the folds in Britannia's drapery etc. transferred from the reverse. Bag marks are simply impact damage from another coin. 

I also think the mark on the 1912 half crown is a bag mark, albeit a pretty heavy one.

1862 1d obv (2).jpg

Edited by mrbadexample
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11 hours ago, mrbadexample said:

1957 half crown with bag marks:

1957 half crown bag marks.jpg

Sorry, but what you've ringed in red are NOT  bag marks. Bag marks could be any of the scratches which you haven't ringed. The ringed sections look like delamination, post-Mint damage, or even damage caused by die damage or bits left by the previous strike. 

To repeat - bag marks are simply the kind of minor scratches and / or dinks caused by coins rubbing loosely against each other in a mint bag, hence the name.

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But you can see the marks from the reeded edge of another coin where they’ve come together. I don’t see how else these marks are caused? 

This was always my understanding of a bag mark, but I’m happy to be re-educated if I’ve misunderstood. :huh:

 

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I think the bottom of the three marked areas IS die clash as the marks appear raised, and agree the others may be delaminations but still do not IMO appear to be bag marks directly with there being either clash or peelback at QE 2 ear - that can not be a bag mark in any sort of way. This coin has plenty of other small bagmarks as well as what appears to be plenty of die polish lines throughout.

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19 minutes ago, VickySilver said:

I think the bottom of the three marked areas IS die clash as the marks appear raised, and agree the others may be delaminations but still do not IMO appear to be bag marks directly with there being either clash or peelback at QE 2 ear - that can not be a bag mark in any sort of way. This coin has plenty of other small bagmarks as well as what appears to be plenty of die polish lines throughout.

I can’t re-examine it or take more photos unfortunately - it was one I rejected as it had too many marks. For it to be die clash though, does it not have to correspond in some way with part of the opposing design, like on the penny above?

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4 hours ago, mrbadexample said:

But you can see the marks from the reeded edge of another coin where they’ve come together. I don’t see how else these marks are caused? 

This was always my understanding of a bag mark, but I’m happy to be re-educated if I’ve misunderstood. :huh:

 

No, you're thinking of something else, e.g. die clash. 'Bag marks' are just what it says on the tin - newly minted coins are bagged up and sent out to banks etc. This mass rough handling of BU coins can lead to scratches (usually minor) or small dinks on the edges, but not the effect you see above which is either caused as part of the strike itself or is post-Mint damage such as delamination or deliberate act.

Edited by Peckris

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