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Colin88

US Grading vs UK Grading.....

46 posts in this topic

Is there anything on here or anywhere that correlates US grading with UK grading.?

For example what does say AU55 correspond to in the UK?

I've seen what I consider to be UK VF coins and EF coins graded as AU55 ....and does the MSxx grade really mean Mint State? ....certainly I've seen MS61 and MS62 nothing like what I would consider to be UK UNC....

Thanks

       

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Coins 728x90

38 minutes ago, Colin88 said:

Is there anything on here or anywhere that correlates US grading with UK grading.?

For example what does say AU55 correspond to in the UK?

I've seen what I consider to be UK VF coins and EF coins graded as AU55 ....and does the MSxx grade really mean Mint State? ....certainly I've seen MS61 and MS62 nothing like what I would consider to be UK UNC....

Thanks

       

One here

I've seen another somewhere as well, but can't recall where.

 
Quote

 

25 November 2013
Buying CGS graded coins 

When buying CGS graded coins it's worth considering the grade and how it translates in to a traditional grade, especially now they no longer put a traditional grade on the slab just a number. So for instance by looking at the chart below a CGS 78 would equate UNC or MS 63-64 on the Sheldon scale. 

CGS Numerical grade to traditional UK grade and then the PCGS/NGC average: 

100 FDC MS70 
99 FDC MS70 
98 FDC MS70 
97 FDC MS70 
96 FDC M69 
95 FDC MS 68 -69 
94 AFDC MS68 
93 AFDC MS 67 -68 
92 AFDC MS67 
91 AFDC MS66 -67 
90 NFDC MS 66 
88 BU -NFDC MS65 -66 
85 Choice UNC - BU MS 65 
82 Choice UNC MS 64 -65 
80 Choice UNC MS 64 
78 UNC MS 63 -64 
75 UNC or near so MS 62 - 63 
70 AU MS 60 -61 
65 GEF MS 60 -61 
60 EF AU58 - MS60 
55 NEF AU55 
50 GVF AU55 
45 GVF AU 53 
40 VF AU 50 
35 NVF EF 45 
30 GF EF 40 
25 GF F35 
20 FF 30 
15 NF 
10 VG 
8 VG 
5 GOOD 
4 FAIR 
3 FAIR 
2 FAIR 
1 FAIR


 The second thing you need to know is the UIN number can be used to bring up details of the coin on the CGS website. You will need to register to do so but doing so means you can use all the free features like population reports, valuation by grade and so on. 

 First port of call for CGS graded coins would be here. 

Thanks.
 


 

 

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How can there be five grades of FDC its either FDC or not isnt it?

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2 hours ago, copper123 said:

How can there be five grades of FDC its either FDC or not isnt it?

It's the creation of a market, just as the myriad listings of varieties for a given date creates the demand over and above simply ticking the date box. Sure FDC should mean FDC, but even with two nominally similar grade coins, everyone will have a preference for one over the other based on their perception of what is before them. Personally, I think the concept of giving or chasing micro-grading is irrelevant as it often takes preference over the contents and is entirely subjective on the opinions of the grader.

 

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I am not a believer in making the statement that if coin A grades X in the US that automatically it grades Y in the UK. The best strategy in buying quality coins is understanding the series, the strike characteristics, lustre and originality with the goal of buying the coin that represents quality for the grade that is affordable. A coin really cannot change unless it is enhanced. And most often that is done with the intent of getting a higher grade from TPG.  An opinion of a coin can change given that grading is merely an opinion.  So my point is do not lose sight of the coin and it's characteristics, how it compares to other examples within the series and how available the coin is based on its state of preservation. There is a condition rarity factor that should be factored into buying.

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I am assuming we are talking about TPGs  for example CGS v PGCS. The first uses their own 0 to 100 scale while PGCS uses the Shelden a 0 to 70 scale which automatically injects confusion  into the system although conversion charts like the one included in this thread exist. The only reason I can think of why CGS used this scale is to demonstrate some difference between CGS and the US TPGs. However I do not think this approach helps the CGS product and they would have been better advised to adopt the 0 - 70 Shelden scale,I can remember viewing that NGS video explaining their methodology for grading coins but have never seen anything as detailed as that that from CGS on their grading process which may account for their inconsistency of their grading. However the US TPGs seem to produce as many questions regarding their grading as CGS. As it happens CGS is owned by London Coins where there is also a conflict of interest between both grading and selling your product which has been pointed out on these forums many times. Common to all TPGs they purport to authenticate coins without presenting any evidence as to their expertise in this area. Let us think for one moment what collectors and investors require from TPGs from both sides of the Atlantic consistency in grading which seems to be lacking at present which is probably the greatest failing of all TPGs. ie if the same coin was submitted to a number of TPGs it should receive the same grade from all of them. If it does not you are effectively creating different markets depending on the TPG you use. I also get the distinct feeling that disputing of TPGs grades is not exactly welcomed on these forums. As we say in Australia don't stir the possum. 

 

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I rest my case no one is prepared to question the judgement of the TPGs. As soon as this question is raised everyone shuts up. What's wrong with you don't you have a view? What are you scared of? Sorry IMO you are a bunch of wimps. I think this may be my last post on this forum..

 

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22 minutes ago, ozjohn said:

I rest my case no one is prepared to question the judgement of the TPGs. As soon as this question is raised everyone shuts up. What's wrong with you don't you have a view? What are you scared of? Sorry IMO you are a bunch of wimps. I think this may be my last post on this forum..

 

Just to let you know i am not a wimp and not scared of posting on here if i have an opinion. .

We are only on about coins on a forum maybe nobody is interested or bothered its know big deal.

If you dont want to post dont bother.....nobody gives a F%%K :)

However if you do fantastic and dont get worked up about it.

Edited by PWA 1967

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15 minutes ago, ozjohn said:

I rest my case no one is prepared to question the judgement of the TPGs. As soon as this question is raised everyone shuts up. What's wrong with you don't you have a view? What are you scared of? Sorry IMO you are a bunch of wimps. I think this may be my last post on this forum..

 

I have no problem with questioning or even attacking the TPGs. I stay out of these arguments simply because I do not "get" the whole principle of locking coins away in plastic coffins. For me the joy of "collecting" is finding coins - often in unexpected places and at low prices - to add to my collection, regardless of grade. When I can, I improve the grade of the coins I have and move on the redundant ones. The thrill is in the hunt and filling the gaps.

Graded and encapsulated coins seem to me much more of an investment or commodity based game, which is alien to me. Hence I do not give a fig for the debates back and forth on which TPGs grade how and which system is right or wrong. If I like a coin and I can afford it, I buy it. If it happens to be in a plastic coffin, I will break it out - unless it is so valuable it makes more sense to sell it on as it is.

Watch me get flamed for stating my opinion - another reason why I usually stay out of these debates.And @ozjohn please don't leave - this forum moves pretty slowly, so the lack of opinion from others is more to do with the number of people watching.

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Hi Paddy,

Love your response. You  have renewed my confidence in this forum. Thanks again.

Regards,

Ozjohn

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PWA 1967,

I think we have crossed swords in the past. Can't say I care too much for your continuing contribution to this forum either.

Ozjohn

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1 hour ago, ozjohn said:

I rest my case no one is prepared to question the judgement of the TPGs. As soon as this question is raised everyone shuts up. 

I think the opposite is true and many of us are just tired of disputing the "judgement" of TPGs. 

Discussions about CGS is now so boring as they don't deserve this level of interest in my view. It is a company that has gone out of business and has never been independent in the first place. LCGS is simply a department of London Coins and so it is a First Party Grader rather than than Third. Its interest is just to make a profit for London Coins. 

In the past, people can get hot under the collar with discussions regarding TPGs and so it's wise not to get involve too often.

Edited by Sword
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Blimey ...I just asked if there was a UK v US grading equivalent....my first personal foray into TPG ...I just had a few coins graded by PCGS and I couldn't believe some of the grades that they came back with and it would certainly confuse the heck out many people here I'm sure ...AU55 (that's Almost Uncirculated?) I would grade as GVF in my case and MS61 (Mint State ?) as EF ...IMO I think it is still clearly a US v UK thing    

 

 

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It is just a question of getting used to the different systems. The UK system is a bit more general in that, for example, EF is a fairly broad designation. The US system, on the other hand, tries to be more specific. In my opinion, graders on both sides of the pond usually get it right despite the odd 'failure'. I am pretty comfortable with both but there is still no substitute for looking at the coin and forming one's own opinion.

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Grading is subjective and that is not going to change. Some opinions are better than others when it comes to grading. For those that treat grading as a math calculation in that there is an absolute answer are going to be disappointed. The expectation that all the major TPG graders will see a coin in the same way seems unrealistic given the inherent subjectivity associated with eye appeal. While I do not participate here that often, I do not see those that participate more as being shy to express their thoughts as to TPG. Seems the majority here still have doubts about TPG and part of that doubt relates not to just the question of consistency, but the perception of what is lost from collecting from the coin being in a "coffin".

I stand by my prior observations and advice. I do not see my response as dodging or evading a question, but rather a blunt reminder as to what is truly important. And that would be the coin and not what I see as the temporary housing the coin currently resides in.  The grade on the slab was the TPG opinion at the time of submission... Just resubmitting a coin is in essence is expressing disagreement with TPG

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5 hours ago, ozjohn said:

I rest my case no one is prepared to question the judgement of the TPGs. As soon as this question is raised everyone shuts up. What's wrong with you don't you have a view? What are you scared of? Sorry IMO you are a bunch of wimps. I think this may be my last post on this forum..

 

I didn't even realise you wanted a reponse to be honest with you. As far as disputing TPG's, I couldn't give two craps either way.

If someone wants to dispute them, it's their call. If they can back up their assertion with fair evidence, then I'd be with them 100%. 

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7 hours ago, ozjohn said:

I rest my case no one is prepared to question the judgement of the TPGs. As soon as this question is raised everyone shuts up. What's wrong with you don't you have a view? What are you scared of? Sorry IMO you are a bunch of wimps. I think this may be my last post on this forum..

 

Yep who cares if you dissapear in a puff of smoke upset with people not giving their opinion on grading companies.

I welcome general  chit -chat on here not drama queens

 

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3 hours ago, coinkat said:

For those that treat grading as a math calculation in that there is an absolute answer are going to be disappointed.

simplified but a start i guess

27990731_10214359007985253_1243990705_o.jpg

 

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A start in trying to quantify subjectivity. And it does not pass the straight face test as subjectivity cannot be eliminated in the evaluation of selecting numbers for these categories especially eye appeal. Grading is just simply not absolute. 

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2 hours ago, rpeddie said:

simplified but a start

 

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Colin88- Just for fun, what coins did you submit? Your post reads as if you were surprised with the PCGS grades. What might help facilitate explanations to the difference in UK and US grading extends beyond comparing the Sheldon scale to either a 100 point scale or the traditional UK grades. Start by appreciating the differences in what US TPG and UK graders look for. The strike carries so much more weight in the UK. That is the standard and the expectation is that a complete or near complete strike is required for a MS grade. There are numerous UK coin series that UK collectors are reluctant to call MS because a coin may not have have a complete or near complete strike. In contrast,  the focal point of US grading centers on lustre and how that translates into eye appeal. While the strike of a coin is not overlooked, there seems to be an appreciation that not all coins within a series are created equal. 

I suspect the strike of the coins that you submitted is part of the difference in your grade and the PCGS grade. Best wishes in connection with your future submissions.

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Interesting observations regarding the UK and US criteria for coin grading. Also it has to be realized that the US TPG dominate the TPG market and as a result call the shots. I was trolling through MS Halfcrowns and Florins and was surprised by the prices being asked for some of these coins which was above $US 300 for some of the common dates of the George V series . I do not know if these coins achieve these prices but the expectation is there that a slabbed coin will command a much higher price even when you account for the cost of the TPG. An added thought I have noticed US TPG seem fairly tolerant of edge  knocks and similar damage to the design and fields of a coin. Personally I think I would be reluctant to attribute a high grade to a coin with damage such as the one shown graded by NGC AU 58 with a gouge mark by the A in HALFCROWN.

img107.jpg

Edited by ozjohn
Extra thought.

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3 hours ago, ozjohn said:

Interesting observations regarding the UK and US criteria for coin grading. Also it has to be realized that the US TPG dominate the TPG market and as a result call the shots. I was trolling through MS Halfcrowns and Florins and was surprised by the prices being asked for some of these coins which was above $US 300 for some of the common dates of the George V series . I do not know if these coins achieve these prices but the expectation is there that a slabbed coin will command a much higher price even when you account for the cost of the TPG. An added thought I have noticed US TPG seem fairly tolerant of edge  knocks and similar damage to the design and fields of a coin. Personally I think I would be reluctant to attribute a high grade to a coin with damage such as the one shown graded by NGC AU 58 with a gouge mark by the A in HALFCROWN.

img107.jpg

This looks like a nice reverse and, were it not for the gouge, might have achieved a much better grade.

In my experience, NGC is very intolerant of marks such as hairline or other scratches which are more than just contact marks. They are, however, tolerant of marks which can be attributed to the minting process such as adjustment marks. I don't know about PCGS as I have never submitted to them.

UK auction graders seem, in my opinion and experience, to be more tolerant of hairline scratches and often don't even describe them. As such, I have learned to become very cautious when buying at auction in the UK.

My overall experience of having coins graded by NGC in the USA is that the graders are pretty strict and generally accurate. When I go back and look at a coin following the grading, I can usually see exactly where the graders are coming from. That, incidentally, has helped me become a better judge of grade when buying.

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Does anyone think that what is next to A in HALF is a strike thru? It just looks too clean to be a gouge.  

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