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frankiew

1897 one penny dot's between e and n of penny

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No comment on whether it has been cleaned or not without seeing it in the flesh but I reckon the dot was caused by a piece of metal or something just being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Have you tried flicking it off with your fingernail? From your picture there looks like a shadow line between it and the coin.

 

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Hi Ian, I have looked under a jewellers loupe and is definitely a raised dot, not anything stuck to coin. I have viewed many images of this coin and can't find any with this dot. I'm just unsure whether to send for pro opinion or if would be a waste of money?

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If its raised and wont come off its a bit of grit or similar on the die so Ideally you would need to find another one to make it of any interest IMO.

As far as sending it to someone they are just going to tell you what you already know and some of the people on here will no doubt give there opinion :)

Another option is something that has been mentioned on here a rust spot on the die that starts off minute and can become bigger.

Whatever it is you really need to find another one atleast so maybe just keep hold of it and keep looking.

The other thing is the 1870 & 1875 the dot is a lot bigger and cant be mistaken for anything else.

Edited by PWA 1967

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Even if others were to be found, I really don’t think it makes much difference. Most dies became somewhat battered, worn or cracked towards the end of their lives resulting in coins with extraneous raised marks, and this includes dies damaged by grit. This does not make them new varieties and should not increase their value, other than in a small number of cases that I have alluded to above. A true variety, as we have discussed elsewhere on this forum, should really be due to a physical change to the die (rarely flan) made by a human. I appreciate that some do collect mint errors and flaws, but these are beyond the remit of catalogues of varietal status.

Jerry

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12 hours ago, PWA 1967 said:

If its raised and wont come off its a bit of grit or similar on the die so Ideally you would need to find another one to make it of any interest IMO.

As far as sending it to someone they are just going to tell you what you already know and some of the people on here will no doubt give there opinion :)

Another option is something that has been mentioned on here a rust spot on the die that starts off minute and can become bigger.

Whatever it is you really need to find another one atleast so maybe just keep hold of it and keep looking.

The other thing is the 1870 & 1875 the dot is a lot bigger and cant be mistaken for anything else.

Apart from a cannonball in the case of 1975 !

(I'll get me coat :ph34r:)

 

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The 1909 penny has this raised dot between E and N of PENNY, found these on London coins but no 1897 yet. Thanks for all the advice though people, much appreciated.

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19 minutes ago, frankiew said:

The 1909 penny has this raised dot between E and N of PENNY, found these on London coins but no 1897 yet. Thanks for all the advice though people, much appreciated.

But again Frank there are quite a few of those all in the same place and again documented in the updated Freeman and David Groom book.

Edited by PWA 1967

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Email from received from M. Gouby 

Thanks to everyone for their input

 

Hello Frankie,
 
There are several penny that have been found with raised flaws , like spots, commas, etc.
They are all a result of a bit of dirt, etc. getting on the die and being transferred onto the coin it was striking.
1874, 1897, 1909, 1946 etc.
They are of interest to some collectors.
Is it worth keeping – yes why not !
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Quote

 

This is the 1875 with a dot under the 1st I of VICTORIA, with coincident die crack on the reverse. Very scarce, London coins have sold 2 I think.

BP 1875 BD 1.JPG

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3 hours ago, davidrj said:

This is the 1875 with a dot under the 1st I of VICTORIA, with coincident die crack on the reverse. Very scarce, London coins have sold 2 I think.

BP 1875 BD 1.JPG

Diemakers are known to drill a hole at the end of a crack in a die, to stop the crack (sometimes only temporarily) to allow the continued use of a die. This is mostly done on forging dies, but maybe on finish quality dies also. (?)

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Guest Vinnie

Just to inform anyone out there I have a Victoria 1897 where there is a dot after the 0 thanks

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10 hours ago, Guest Vinnie said:

Just to inform anyone out there I have a Victoria 1897 where there is a dot after the 0 thanks

"A" dot or "the" dot? Please put a picture up.

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On 1/29/2018 at 6:57 AM, PWA 1967 said:

The above comment has made me start to think :blink:

If your reading this thread PLEASE post if you think the coin has been cleaned or not.

There is no right or wrong answer :D just interested in everyones opinion.

Pete.

There are those fine even hairlines in the reverse field. They aren't created randomly.  

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if raised metal pieces are the result of a piece dirt or something would you not expect the something to move with successive strikes? it is just that Jerry and I both have an exact same raised mound above the lighthouse on an 1879 the structure and shape is CM180513-105034005 (589x790).jpgthe same on both we both discovered we had one when I posted it recently 

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http://www.londoncoins.co.uk/?page=Pastresults&auc=152&searchlot=2434&searchtype=2

Auction 152 lot 2434 has the pics.

Edited by DrLarry

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If there was some particle or debris on the die wouldn't that produce an incuse mark and not a raised mark? unless the master die received a second impression of the top of the lighthouse . Looking at how the USA define a doubled die which after all these years I am now just starting to understand.  Cast your mind to the double ear on lincoln cent I think this is the same thing but the top of the lighthouse has two impressions on the striking die. The only other explanation is they reused older coinage and that is the remnants of another lighthouse but a different type as the tip section is box shaped rather than a ball or a point? there's definitely underlying scaring to suggest something was previously on the coin

 

 

lh.jpg

Edited by zookeeperz

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yes I have looked around a lot for the idea of the second lighthouse , initially I thought that this strange top was a re-used die with the taller thinner lighthouse but it doesn't fit.  In many of my pennies I believed there to have been a move of the lighthouse and thought I saw a ghost.  In the "shuttle takeoff" one above there is a second type which shows considerable regrinding around this area which leaves the whole area showing the alteration or removal but the "shuttle" is quite deep standing quite proud of the coin so it would have required a lot of alteration.  I have two that show a scar of similar shape which may be indicative of the beginning of the fracture that then falls out for some reason giving rise to the shuttle.  The alternative is that the scar is a remnant of the removal.  I think when things like this happen they leave the die with microfissures surrounding it which on later usage opens the area to relatively more rapid corrosion which often seems to lead to a darkening or lightening of the area affected.  I would need an electron microscope to prove that  however I think or a metallurgy microscope which sadly I no longer have. 

I did not here back from Jerry when I asked him what his thoughts on this strange shuttle were.  

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8 hours ago, zookeeperz said:

If there was some particle or debris on the die wouldn't that produce an incuse mark and not a raised mark? unless the master die received a second impression of the top of the lighthouse . Looking at how the USA define a doubled die which after all these years I am now just starting to understand.  Cast your mind to the double ear on lincoln cent I think this is the same thing but the top of the lighthouse has two impressions on the striking die. The only other explanation is they reused older coinage and that is the remnants of another lighthouse but a different type as the tip section is box shaped rather than a ball or a point? there's definitely underlying scaring to suggest something was previously on the coin

 

 

lh.jpg

I will take another look at mine see if those marks are not just light reflection 

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I think it may well be an optical illusion (as so many of these things are !) created by the lustre "shadow" varying the wear and the fact that this is a little beaten up and there are a few scratches.  I will try load these pics up 

DSC_1523 (169x300).jpg

DSC_1520 (169x300).jpg

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the details at the top of the lighthouse are quite interesting almost as if the two are connected.  There is a piece missing from the N on mine which I would like to compare to Jerry's which may have been the problem possibly a piece breaking off and damaging the die,  but I don't know if this is a plausible answer to the problem.  I think we are a little bit too quick to make judgement on these things at times and as a result we lose some interesting aspects of the history.  

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sorry it won't let me load .....I am sure there is a "conspiracy of detail" just in case we find something strange LOL  Pennies are minted by aliens that landed in the space shuttle and the lighthouse is really an alien craft. 

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here is the detail 

DSC_1519 (300x169).jpg

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