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Coinbuyer555

EBAY SCAM

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On 12/21/2017 at 5:44 PM, Coinbuyer555 said:

Bought a $4000 coin in November from Simon Willis Coins LTD, found it to be a fake and hence returned it Dec 5th, he won't pick it up from the post office and hence it has been put on 'hold' while they keep it for a while and then return to me.

Called bay on the phone and they said they will deal with this as I gave them a tracking number.

Only spent this much as this is a coin dealer and trusted him, seems I was wrong. Totally different from the description of the coin:

 

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/George-VI-Silver-Crown-1937-Coronation-Frosted-VIP-Proof-Crown-S4079-FDC-PR65Cam/172939907761?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

This coin is in coin news today :o

Edited by PWA 1967

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5 hours ago, PWA 1967 said:

This coin is in coin news today :o

What do they say then, Pete?

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8 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

What do they say then, Pete?

Its just in the ebay section with whoever wrote it describing the coin and then using the sellers description.

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I have never had any dealings with the seller in question. However, I do think his behaviour on this occasion to be somewhat below the standard expected from a reputable dealer. 

He listed the coin on Ebay as a VIP proof crown with a price tag of well over £2K. He claimed it is of R5 rarity with only 6 minted and the coin was struck in “pure silver”.

He did not reply to a negative feedback calling the coin a scam. Everyone have the right of silence but not responding to this sort of accusation might be interpreted as an admission of guilt. 

I was originally quite sympathetic as it could have been just an honest mistake and the manners of the buyer was unhelpful to put things mildly. 

He is now trying to sell the coin on his own website with a much reduced price of £450. He now states that PCGS has graded 23 examples above his PR65. However, he is still describing the coin as a VIP proof! He knows jolly well that this is not possible if it is of R5 rarity. 

https://simonwilliscoins.com/item/S4079/1937%20Silver%20Crown%20FDC%20/%20PR65%20CAM

 

Edited by Sword

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Not having seen the coin, it may be worth pointing out that the dealer in question may disagree with the attribution on the slab. As long as he believes it to be a VIP proof then he is not trying to rip anyone off (although he should probably state something to the effect that he disagrees with the slab). Then the buyer can make a decision based on the reputation of the dealer. The R5 is merely a marker put down by ESC and we all know these have been proven to be a best guess at the time of writing. If PCGS believe there to be 23+ examples of that particular VIP proof, and it is stated as R5 by ESC, one or the other is incorrect, and it could possibly be PCGS who are incorrect. Again, the dealer in question may still be believe it to be R5 in which case he should explain himself!

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A dealer is certainly at liberty to disagree with a TPG attribution. However, why has he reduced the price to only one sixth of the original amount (£475 from £2850) if he still believes the coin to be a VIP proof? No one would slash his price like that unless there is a very good reason. 
S4079 refers to both the normal proof and VIP proof. The PCGS population report was probably referring to the ordinary proof crowns. He has now removed the reference to ESC4022 which specifically refers to the VIP proof. He is now not mentioning only 6 pieces struck. The previous title was " George VI Silver Crown 1937 Coronation Frosted VIP Proof Crown S4079 FDC/PR65Cam". Now it is just "1937 Crown FDC / PR65 CAM". However, he is still using the phrase "Frosted VIP Proof Crown" in the description.
 

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Seller should stick to what he knows.

Hammered and early milled and leave these so called VIP things alone :)

Edited by PWA 1967
  • Like 2

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Understand what you are saying about pricing at £475 Sword however his pricing may be well thought out based on the changing circumstances. If there is doubt about its VIP status it should sell at a reduced price. As an example, LCA sold a 1953 proof halfcrown for £350 at their last auction, where presumably the buyer thought it was VIP with some of the other bidders not so sure. Surely this coin would have fetched far more had everyone believed it to be a VIP. I should point out I have no affiliation with this dealer by the way- just trying to play Devil's advocate!

 

 

 

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He sold the coin originally at a price listed at £2,850.00.

Now a month later he is happy to sell it for £475.......Still listed as VIP.

Surely you would get a second opinion and if he was sure  why not put in a LCGS holder rather than sell it for £2K less ,would only cost £30/40 or so.

Makes me think he did not have a clue what it was or trying to have someone over either way he is best leaving them alone and should IMO of made a big apology to the buyer.

Maybe he did and the biggest lesson learned is leave them well alone if not in a designated slab or you have the knowledge to be sure seeing the coin in hand.

Nothing to do with me or any of my business just wouldnt like anyone else to pay way over trusting a dealer.

 

 

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1 hour ago, youliveyoulean said:

Understand what you are saying about pricing at £475 Sword however his pricing may be well thought out based on the changing circumstances. If there is doubt about its VIP status it should sell at a reduced price.

 

Exactly the point. If there is doubt about the coin's VIP status, he should have described it using caveats such as "possibly" or "could be" VIP. It was simply wrong not to do so.

42 minutes ago, PWA 1967 said:

 

Makes me think he did not have a clue what it was or trying to have someone over either way he is best leaving them alone and should IMO of made a big apology to the buyer.

 

I doubt he made any apology as he is still listing the thing as a VIP proof.

 

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He has this coin priced based on it not being a VIP variety but an ordinary proof (although some may think the price a little high!). Seems like he already acknowledges it is not a VIP proof (even if he thought so originally) so why would you get it regraded? 

Without knowing the buyer, I would be prepared to give this gentleman the benefit of the doubt. Refund of funds through ebay paypal etc. can take up to several days for returns and buyers can get angry if they don't get their refund immediately. He possibly panicked thinking he'd been ripped off and the return process didn't happen fast enough for his liking. People tend to get a bit edgy when they think they may have been swindled out of £2,850 ;)

Opens up an interesting debate about what is ethical and what is not when selling coins. Nearly every dealer, TPG and auction house I have encountered has described coins as UNC when they are clearly not........are they all unethical?  

 

 

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The question is why knock over £2K off and if he acknowledges it is now not one why is he still listing it as such on a different platform.

In answer to your question yes anyone who trys to sell a coin for £2K plus knowing that its worth £100 is totally out of order.

 

Edited by PWA 1967

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Perhaps he was too busy and forgot to amend the description as well as the price? Either way, based on that pricing you cannot say he is trying to sell it as a VIP proof!

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It may make you angry that you think he was trying to charge 2K+ for a £100 coin but he just did what all sellers and auctions houses do.

if he did a little research and was unsure as to the attribution, does he a) sell it as an ordinary proof and lose out big time or b ) initially advertise as a VIP proof to see if anyone agrees even though he suspects it may be an ordinary proof..........

How many times do you see an auctioneer do something similar with rare previously unknown varieties etc. Do they advertise it at £5 or give it a guide of £10,000 - £15,000 in the hope that someone agrees? Would you still use that auction house?

 

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Sorry but am i missing something here :(

The coin is from a 1937 proof set (or is it )  i could buy a full set for that and if i took my time would find a nice one as plenty available.

Even if i put the crown in plastic i would still be happy with a lot less than £475.

So based on the pricing £475 do you think that is ok for a normal one ?.

To defend the seller is fine and always two sides to every story....... i am the first to defend anyone and going to leave this thread now :)

Perhaps he was to busy.........:o

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I agree the price is high and not particularly fair. Buyers want the finest known or thereabouts and pay a huge premium for it. For some reason, some of these slabbed have sold for more than an individual FDC set so his price may be justified.

I am not tryng to defend the dealer in any way, just provide another angle :)

Selling £2 coins for upwards of £10 to new collectors is much worse in my opinion. In the financial world, someone looking into buying a VIP proof would be deemed a sophisticated investor who should know what they're doing.

 

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I occasionally contradict myself all of the time but I can assure you it's deliberate.:blink:

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21 hours ago, youliveyoulean said:

Not having seen the coin, it may be worth pointing out that the dealer in question may disagree with the attribution on the slab. As long as he believes it to be a VIP proof then he is not trying to rip anyone off (although he should probably state something to the effect that he disagrees with the slab). Then the buyer can make a decision based on the reputation of the dealer. The R5 is merely a marker put down by ESC and we all know these have been proven to be a best guess at the time of writing. If PCGS believe there to be 23+ examples of that particular VIP proof, and it is stated as R5 by ESC, one or the other is incorrect, and it could possibly be PCGS who are incorrect. Again, the dealer in question may still be believe it to be R5 in which case he should explain himself!

Sword didn't say that. He said that PGCS had graded 23+ examples of non-VIP proofs (presumably displaying signs of frosting).

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must be ingram coins selling it, i know more about these coins than they do after learning the hard way, 

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i'm still waiting for the royal mint to get back about the vip proofs etc, i have 2 frosty ones, this being the frostier, the reverse isnt as frosty as the obverse

20621819_10154595704746020_580676321911885621_n.jpg.25d836f9fb202358c22b6b6cf14766cf.jpg

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11 hours ago, youliveyoulean said:

Understand what you are saying about pricing at £475 Sword however his pricing may be well thought out based on the changing circumstances. If there is doubt about its VIP status it should sell at a reduced price. As an example, LCA sold a 1953 proof halfcrown for £350 at their last auction, where presumably the buyer thought it was VIP with some of the other bidders not so sure. Surely this coin would have fetched far more had everyone believed it to be a VIP. I should point out I have no affiliation with this dealer by the way- just trying to play Devil's advocate!

 

 

 

exactly the same i had with ingram coins, only he went by one that sold on lca for 2.5k, yet i showed him loads foir sale for a few quid, cost me £190 notes to get my money back, biggest pair of scammers going, their mark up on it was over £350,  you get coins form them that aint pictured and you trust them and when they turn up there badly toned proofs that were described as fdc or afdc   

 

still a big question mark over these vip proofs 

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14 hours ago, youliveyoulean said:

if he did a little research and was unsure as to the attribution, does he a) sell it as an ordinary proof and lose out big time or b ) initially advertise as a VIP proof to see if anyone agrees even though he suspects it may be an ordinary proof..........

I am stunned... I don't think I am alone in saying that I certainly don't want to buy anything from anyone with this type of philosophy. 

14 hours ago, youliveyoulean said:

Perhaps he was too busy and forgot to amend the description as well as the price? 

Sure. 

I too will now leave this tread. 

 

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I think it is a no brainer for 5 or 6 known they would all I assume come with provenance . Saying something  and being something are worlds apart. 95% of us if we believed we had something of potential value would get it checked by knowledgeable people . If it was my coin I would of sent it insured to the royal Mint. No better place to enquire after all they struck it. He is probably miffed that he more than likely paid well over the odds and I am edging the £475 is what he paid for it thinking he got a great deal on a VIP proof. Only to find it is worth half that. Although a sad tale it should be as he well knows being a reputable dealer move on and take it on the chin . It will not be the first or last sale to have a questionable item and it's rarity debated. Most are not what they appear at first glance. That is why they are rare after all ;)

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