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Paulus

Penny Acquisition of the week

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On 7/22/2022 at 8:09 PM, 1949threepence said:

Thanks Ian - I'll send it by next day tracked delivery tomorrow. Although it'll be next day but one, as the actual next day is Sunday. 

I've now had a chance to examine Mike's 1841 REG Colon and compare to my own. These are both coins with the flaws through the numeral 8, and VICTORIA legend.

I attach full date pictures of both coins at 50x Mag.

On the post which will immediately follow (due to image size restrictions) I will also attach close ups of the 18’s on both coins, now at 140x Mag.

On the latter images  I have also measured the distance from the left hand side of the first 1 to the left hand side of the numeral 8 (i.e. to allow for numeral flattening through wear).

I conclude that both coins, as anticipated, seem to be identically spaced.

I think that a couple of things have understandably tricked the eye, giving Mike the false impression that his coin may have been a new 1841 REG: Date Style.  

a) the top, and top right hand side of the numeral 1 on Mike's coin is a little damaged / and further flattened towards the numeral 8, and

b) to the naked eye, the darker grime around both numerals gives the impression of them being closer.

I have already communicated this with Mike, attaching the same pictures.

Two 1841 REG Colons Full Dates.jpg

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12 minutes ago, alfnail said:

I've now had a chance to examine Mike's 1841 REG Colon and compare to my own. These are both coins with the flaws through the numeral 8, and VICTORIA legend.

I attach full date pictures of both coins at 50x Mag.

On the post which will immediately follow (due to image size restrictions) I will also attach close ups of the 18’s on both coins, now at 140x Mag.

On the latter images  I have also measured the distance from the left hand side of the first 1 to the left hand side of the numeral 8 (i.e. to allow for numeral flattening through wear).

I conclude that both coins, as anticipated, seem to be identically spaced.

I think that a couple of things have understandably tricked the eye, giving Mike the false impression that his coin may have been a new 1841 REG: Date Style.  

a) the top, and top right hand side of the numeral 1 on Mike's coin is a little damaged / and further flattened towards the numeral 8, and

b) to the naked eye, the darker grime around both numerals gives the impression of them being closer.

I have already communicated this with Mike, attaching the same pictures.

 

Ian, once again, thanks very much for having a close up look for me. Much appreciated.

I thought it was probably an optical illusion, and looking at the detailed close up pics you kindly provide, it very obviously is. But it's always worth checking out, just in case.

The grime in particular is very deceptive.

 

 

  

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6 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Ian, once again, thanks very much for having a close up look for me. Much appreciated.

I thought it was probably an optical illusion, and looking at the detailed close up pics you kindly provide, it very obviously is. But it's always worth checking out, just in case.

The grime in particular is very deceptive.

I think it also goes to show that - at very high magnifications - no two strikes from the same die are absolutely identical (almost, often, but never quite..)

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I was lucky enough to pick this one up on the Bay , unattributed as an  F763  [ Gouby A1+B ] [ Bulging Eyes ]   . Its the same as Example 2 On Richards site .   I know Its a little battered, but so hard to find in any condition.

I also note that both the Reverses on the Gouby  A1+B    and the   A+B  are different in that the date width on the   A1+B  is wider.

548083990_1860Patterndiehasbulgingeyes.PortraitrejectedbyVictoriaTypeFreeman763GoubyA1-B-.JPG.d36d47619e2e7e99e610ee55ca702d39.JPG1167830271_1860PatterndieRev_Ex_Rare.JPG.6a13ab56cbd56d08d0424cf75c15bcaa.JPG

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Pity the pictures don't expand - it will be really nice to see those bigger as it looks a real beaut.

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2 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

Pity the pictures don't expand - it will be really nice to see those bigger as it looks a real beaut.

Press the ‘verify NGC certification’ link above the photos, there are better pics on the NGC site.

Jerry

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Yes, beautiful colour there!

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When I noticed that an - in truth - very ordinary 1869 penny fetched over £2k hammer at the recent Baldwin's auction, I decided to buy this EF specimen, with slight residual lustre,  from Middlesex Coins, for half the price.

At any rate it beats my current rather scruffy VF example.

ETA: I should add that there is a ding in the upper reverse field. Not sure whether this is a metal flaw or post mint damage, but either way, it doesn't detract significantly. 

 

    

middlesex complete.PNG

Edited by 1949threepence
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On 10/27/2022 at 11:24 PM, PWA 1967 said:

Not purchased this week but received back from NGC today.

Really happy with the grade as although its a weak strike as quite a few are they are scarce BU and Graded RED.

 

Verify NGC Certification | NGC (ngccoin.com)

312991224_2529637237176159_2798335915170072485_n.jpg

313135768_495269222529202_55093485941083882_n.jpg

You can tell it's an H as well by the terrible strike. Half the trident has gone awol probably due to the severe ghosting. I've got one similar, but your colour is unbeatable!

I find the 18/19 H's have paler lustre than the KN's which are deeper orange when still lustred, from the few I've seen.

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8 minutes ago, oldcopper said:

You can tell it's an H as well by the terrible strike. Half the trident has gone awol probably due to the severe ghosting. I've got one similar, but your colour is unbeatable!

I find the 18/19 H's have paler lustre than the KN's which are deeper orange when still lustred, from the few I've seen.

Even though fully lustred, there's personally no way I'd ever buy such a coin as so much detail is missing. Although I guess we're all different and some collectors prefer the full lustre to the detail. These are my 1918Hs, with much better detail:-

 

sharp strike 1918H rev cropped.jpg

sharp strike 1918 obv cropped.jpg

punny1918H rev.jpg

punny1918hobv.jpg

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2 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Even though fully lustred, there's personally no way I'd ever buy such a coin as so much detail is missing. Although I guess we're all different and some collectors prefer the full lustre to the detail. These are my 1918Hs, with much better detail:-

 

Interesting. I've just looked at the DNW archive and strangely all the BU or NBU ones (of which there are several) are weakly struck missing part of the shaft etc whereas the less lustrous or non lustrous ones are all much better struck. Which is the wrong way round! The best one of the properly struck ones does have a bit of lustre, but the rest are brown.:

https://www.noonans.co.uk/auctions/archive/lot-archive/results/338608/?keywords=1918H+penny&x=0&y=0

I wonder if a batch of weakly struck examples failed Heaton's QC and were put away and forgotten about. And here they all are!

Edited by oldcopper
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1 hour ago, oldcopper said:

Interesting. I've just looked at the DNW archive and strangely all the BU or NBU ones (of which there are several) are weakly struck missing part of the shaft etc whereas the less lustrous or non lustrous ones are all much better struck. Which is the wrong way round! The best one of the properly struck ones does have a bit of lustre, but the rest are brown.:

https://www.noonans.co.uk/auctions/archive/lot-archive/results/338608/?keywords=1918H+penny&x=0&y=0

I wonder if a batch of weakly struck examples failed Heaton's QC and were put away and forgotten about. And here they all are!

Indeed, some of the BU or NBU specimens look dreadful. Although that Noonans lot No 308 on your link, actually isn't too bad. 

I get what you're saying and as a theory it's as plausible as any. But logically you would think that a few UNC examples with good detail would also have survived. You're right though, we don't seem to see too many. Personally I've made it part of my primary motivation with George V pennies, to obtain those with as good detail as possible. 

The 1918KN's are generally a lot better than the H's.  

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10 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

When I noticed that an - in truth - very ordinary 1869 penny fetched over £2k hammer at the recent Baldwin's auction, I decided to buy this EF specimen, with slight residual lustre,  from Middlesex Coins, for half the price.

At any rate it beats my current rather scruffy VF example.

ETA: I should add that there is a ding in the upper reverse field. Not sure whether this is a metal flaw or post mint damage, but either way, it doesn't detract significantly. 

 

    

middlesex complete.PNG

Is your VF example for sale, Mike? If so, do you have pictures? PM me if so.

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38 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

Is your VF example for sale, Mike? If so, do you have pictures? PM me if so.

Sent you a PM Chris.

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On 10/27/2022 at 11:24 PM, PWA 1967 said:

Not purchased this week but received back from NGC today.

Really happy with the grade as although its a weak strike as quite a few are they are scarce BU and Graded RED.

 

Verify NGC Certification | NGC (ngccoin.com)

312991224_2529637237176159_2798335915170072485_n.jpg

313135768_495269222529202_55093485941083882_n.jpg

How odd...I've seen some weak reverse strikes before, but not one where the border has no teeth whatsoever....

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22 minutes ago, blakeyboy said:

How odd...I've seen some weak reverse strikes before, but not one where the border has no teeth whatsoever....

That's a good point. Hadn't noticed until you pointed out. 

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18 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Indeed, some of the BU or NBU specimens look dreadful. Although that Noonans lot No 308 on your link, actually isn't too bad. 

I get what you're saying and as a theory it's as plausible as any. But logically you would think that a few UNC examples with good detail would also have survived. You're right though, we don't seem to see too many. Personally I've made it part of my primary motivation with George V pennies, to obtain those with as good detail as possible. 

The 1918KN's are generally a lot better than the H's.  

It might be that these understrikes survive in relatively pristine condition as they were never issued for circulation. Alternatively someone got hold of a mint roll of these identically badly struck examples from the bank. Either way they all look closely related in terms of striking conditions as they are all similarly under-struck, with the same amount of trident, knee missing, weak bust etc so likely from the same batch.

This suggests the striking pressure was under-par to exactly the same extent for a sequence of strikes, and must have been set wrongly, either as an economising experiment or just a simple mistake.

 

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2 hours ago, oldcopper said:

It might be that these understrikes survive in relatively pristine condition as they were never issued for circulation. Alternatively someone got hold of a mint roll of these identically badly struck examples from the bank. Either way they all look closely related in terms of striking conditions as they are all similarly under-struck, with the same amount of trident, knee missing, weak bust etc so likely from the same batch.

This suggests the striking pressure was under-par to exactly the same extent for a sequence of strikes, and must have been set wrongly, either as an economising experiment or just a simple mistake.

 

They look as though enveloped by fog !

Probably the main constant with all of them is the complete absence of hair detail on the King's head.

 

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47 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

They look as though enveloped by fog !

Probably the main constant with all of them is the complete absence of hair detail on the King's head.

 

Yes, it's funny the best 1918H pennies are also the worst!

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Yes, but 1918 H are still better than the REALLY sorrowful 1919 H coins...I will try to post my own & as above appreciate the lovely colour of coins such as above but admit to personally resisting to buy lesser struck coins.

With regards to the 19 H, I did a bit better over time but was never truly satisfied by a coin of good to great strike AND decent metal mix - the "woodgrain" toning is generally a euphemism in my view....

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2 hours ago, VickySilver said:

Yes, but 1918 H are still better than the REALLY sorrowful 1919 H coins...I will try to post my own & as above appreciate the lovely colour of coins such as above but admit to personally resisting to buy lesser struck coins.

So true - and is undoubtedly the reason that good top-grade examples of the 19H command such high prices, as good as 18KNs at least. My own example has virtually no hair detail at all, yet the obverse legend has virtually no wear, Britannia's shield and fingers are near perfect, etc.

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...ah...maybe she'd just had a makeover and manicure.......

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