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I think that the most interesting thing about the obverse that is paired with the 1841 REG: is that it is subsequently paired with an 1841 NO REG Colon.

The beauty of flaws, which are seen in the exact same locations, is that they can give you a time line between die pairings.

Here is an 1841 No REG Colon piece, with same numeral 8 flaw, and also the VICTORIA flaws further developed (shown alongside the REG Colon flaw for comparison), proving that it came after the REG colon coin.

.  

1841 No REG Colon DateSized.jpg

CTO Flaws Both REG Colon and No REG ColonSized1.jpg

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17 hours ago, alfnail said:

The die crack through the numeral 8 on the 1841 REG: is generally NOT present. I have seen it on only 2 of the 11 REG: specimens that I have owned. There is also by then some additional flawing through the VICTORIA legend.

By the time these obverse flaws appear, on the later strikes, the reverse is also then seen with flaws appearing from Britannia's toes up to the F of DEF..............and then onwards through the top of the legend on the right of the coin. Attached pictures refer.  

 

 

 

My earlier colon after REG has the die crack through the 8 as well as the other flaws you refer to above. 

The 1 and 8 of date also look closer together.

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1 hour ago, 1949threepence said:

The 1 and 8 of date also look closer together.

Hi Mike,

I believe that both 1841 types  (i.e. with and without the colon after REG on the reverse) which have this identical flaw through the numeral 8, also have identical date spacings. 

I attach high definition pictures of both dates on my two coins for comparison.

If you think you have a REG colon with different date spacings then could you please post a picture, as that would be a total surprise?

combinedsizedtext.jpg

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14 hours ago, alfnail said:

Hi Mike,

I believe that both 1841 types  (i.e. with and without the colon after REG on the reverse) which have this identical flaw through the numeral 8, also have identical date spacings. 

I attach high definition pictures of both dates on my two coins for comparison.

If you think you have a REG colon with different date spacings then could you please post a picture, as that would be a total surprise?

 

Hi Ian,

Was just about to start this when I realised the battery on my tablet had run right down. Now on charge.

I'll do tomorrow.

Just looked again and, unless I'm seeing things, there is a palpable difference between the 1 an 8 date spacings on the two coins. Maybe an optical illusion. 

 

 

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On 7/20/2022 at 8:27 AM, alfnail said:

Hi Mike,

I believe that both 1841 types  (i.e. with and without the colon after REG on the reverse) which have this identical flaw through the numeral 8, also have identical date spacings. 

I attach high definition pictures of both dates on my two coins for comparison.

If you think you have a REG colon with different date spacings then could you please post a picture, as that would be a total surprise?

 

Here are the two 1841 colon after REG obverses I have. To me there are clear differences between the 1 and 8 when comparing the two.

   

wonky date joint.PNG

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54 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

Here are the two 1841 colon after REG obverses I have. To me there are clear differences between the 1 and 8 when comparing the two.

   

wonky date joint.PNG

Are you able to post a bigger picture? I'm not seeing any differences that are not accountable by wear.

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1 hour ago, Peckris 2 said:

Are you able to post a bigger picture? I'm not seeing any differences that are not accountable by wear.

Unfortunately not, and although I can find the item in e bay, it won't let me enlarge the thumbnail.

In hand the difference is quite definite.

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I agree they look different, though photos from an identical viewpoint - camera stand etc- would be helpful as photos can/do lie. However the relationships with border teeth do seem to differ. The second, more worn coin does appear to have the die flaw through the date, as Ian shows. Both are better than my pitiful current example.

Jerry

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10 hours ago, jelida said:

I agree they look different, though photos from an identical viewpoint - camera stand etc- would be helpful as photos can/do lie.

I agree with Jerry, but I am still sure that the date widths must be the same on both these coins.

It would be a hell of a coincidence if there were two different date widths paired with the 1841 REG: reverse which both had flaws through the numeral 8, and the letters in VICTORIA, and both have a 1/1.

My guess is that the coin pictured right on Mike's pictures is a little angled to the camera and that this gives the impression that the 1 and 8 are closer. There also appears to be either some grime or shadow to the left hand side of the 8 and also a generally darker area between the right of the 1 and the left of the 8.....both these things tend to give the added impression that the numerals are closer together.

I attach a picture of what I believe is the SAME obverse on a coin which I have tried to angle in the same way as Mike's right hand picture. 

To confirm exact numeral locations Mike's coin really needs to be put under a digital microscope at right angles to the coin.

 

Predsized.jpg

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, alfnail said:

I agree with Jerry, but I am still sure that the date widths must be the same on both these coins.

It would be a hell of a coincidence if there were two different date widths paired with the 1841 REG: reverse which both had flaws through the numeral 8, and the letters in VICTORIA, and both have a 1/1.

My guess is that the coin pictured right on Mike's pictures is a little angled to the camera and that this gives the impression that the 1 and 8 are closer. There also appears to be either some grime or shadow to the left hand side of the 8 and also a generally darker area between the right of the 1 and the left of the 8.....both these things tend to give the added impression that the numerals are closer together.

I attach a picture of what I believe is the SAME obverse on a coin which I have tried to angle in the same way as Mike's right hand picture. 

To confirm exact numeral locations Mike's coin really needs to be put under a digital microscope at right angles to the coin.

 

Predsized.jpg

Hi Ian - if it were purely the angle of the camera then it would not be as obvious to the naked eye as it is.

If you like, I could send it to you for closer examination, to see what you think. Let me know.

ETA: under magnification there is definitely some grime, but I'm not convinced that would distort the impression to such an extent.

 

Edited by 1949threepence
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Very happy to do that Mike, if ok with you, as it would be very interesting to see if it's a different 1841 REG: date style.

 

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6 hours ago, alfnail said:

Very happy to do that Mike, if ok with you, as it would be very interesting to see if it's a different 1841 REG: date style.

 

Thanks Ian - I'll send it by next day tracked delivery tomorrow. Although it'll be next day but one, as the actual next day is Sunday. 

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9 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Hi Ian - if it were purely the angle of the camera then it would not be as obvious to the naked eye as it is.

If you like, I could send it to you for closer examination, to see what you think. Let me know.

ETA: under magnification there is definitely some grime, but I'm not convinced that would distort the impression to such an extent.

 

Perhaps you could just shoot a close up of the dates on each coin, then upload them side by side?

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46 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

Perhaps you could just shoot a close up of the dates on each coin, then upload them side by side?

I need to investigate and buy some close up photography equipment. If I get too close with what I've got, the pic just gets blurred.  

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A simple but moderately effective means of getting a uniform perspective is to use a scanner.  It doesn't truly get a great image for depth, however for side by side comparisons it's effective.

Of course it only works if the coins in question are in your possession.

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Just hold a convex lens over the camera lens.  Job done.

 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, blakeyboy said:

Just hold a convex lens over the camera lens.  Job done.

 

 

 

 

 

Just tried the convex lens few minutes ago, it's so hard to hold it stable to make the zoom correct.  I have to admit i'm too poor in taking picture.  

For the 1881 Penny, it is a Reverse J in view of where the sea stop on both side.  However, the lighthouse seems not as fat as it should be and position of the rock on right of the lighthouse as well....or am i wrong about the understanding of the lighthouse of the 1881 Penny.

UK 1881 Penny Reverse (small).jpg

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Thanks for the tips chaps, but I reckon nothing can beat seeing the coin i hand, which is why I've sent it to Ian. 

It's more probable than not that I'm wrong about the date spacing, but at least I'll get a second opinion based on sight of the actual item.

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2 hours ago, Bruce said:

 

Just tried the convex lens few minutes ago, it's so hard to hold it stable to make the zoom correct.  I have to admit i'm too poor in taking picture.  

For the 1881 Penny, it is a Reverse J in view of where the sea stop on both side.  However, the lighthouse seems not as fat as it should be and position of the rock on right of the lighthouse as well....or am i wrong about the understanding of the lighthouse of the 1881 Penny.

 

Actually, that lighthouse doesn't look quite right for a reverse J. I've looked at my Freeman's 102, 105 and 106, which are all reverse J, and the lighthouses all taper downwards into a slightly broader base that yours appears to, Bruce. Seems more akin to the lighthouse on reverse H.

Probably an optical illusion, but even so. Be interested to hear the thoughts of others on that one.

I'm not sure about the rock.

 

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Its good not having a collection anymore as i can buy plenty if they are nice 😀

A common year but not in this grade.

 

294762596_660997385319399_8526129059217278030_n.jpg

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1 hour ago, 1949threepence said:

Actually, that lighthouse doesn't look quite right for a reverse J. I've looked at my Freeman's 102, 105 and 106, which are all reverse J, and the lighthouses all taper downwards into a slightly broader base that yours appears to, Bruce. Seems more akin to the lighthouse on reverse H.

Probably an optical illusion, but even so. Be interested to hear the thoughts of others on that one.

I'm not sure about the rock.

 

Yes, i think so, it looks more like lighthouse of reverse H when i look at it on hand.  However, for the sea on both sides, it is reverse J.  I tried to take better picture but with no luck.  Just 1 more close up, you may find the Britannia hand is missing.

IMG_20220723_165337_HDR~2.jpg

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"Actually, that lighthouse doesn't look quite right for a reverse J. I've looked at my Freeman's 102, 105 and 106, which are all reverse J, and the lighthouses all taper downwards into a slightly broader base in a way that yours doesn't appear to, Bruce. Yours seems more akin to the lighthouse on reverse H."

Wrote the original all wrong. Should have been as above.

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Posted (edited)

I'm happy that it's rev J.

 

Edited by secret santa
correction
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On 7/22/2022 at 11:10 PM, 1949threepence said:

I need to investigate and buy some close up photography equipment. If I get too close with what I've got, the pic just gets blurred.  

If you get as close as you can - even with a phone - the resulting jpeg is usually big enough that you can crop down to the desired size.

569059170_17076drev.JPG.a47ed1a6397f64c81449bdb980159c1d.JPG837750834_17076drevcrop.jpg.d0305b5476eb06d9ae043facb7cb3dea.jpg

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On 7/24/2022 at 2:32 AM, secret santa said:

I'm happy that it's rev J.

 

Yes, i mark the same in my worksheet when i received the coin n inserting remarks about lighthouse.

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