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Penny Acquisition of the week

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31 minutes ago, blakeyboy said:

It is very very interesting to me how many need to exist before a variety like a 'missing sea' commands a premium.

The psychology of it is fascinating.  I'm waiting for some more 1880 missing sea type to turn up,

so my seemingly only child example might accrue value...:)

Absolutely right - singletons of what COULD just be a misstrike are curiosities only until more turn up.

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Very pleased to obtain one of the last pieces of the jigsaw in the Victorian copper penny series I've been collecting for the last year. It's an 1843 DFF Bramah 3b type, in perhaps near VF. Private buy agreed with Ian a day or two ago, and just received today. Despite a careful lookout and a daily dedicated search of e bay 1843's since last April, I haven't previously seen one. Nor any at auction. Over the last 17 years, 4 have been sold at LCA, in 2013, 2014, 2016 and 2018, but they were all of very low grade, sub fine. 

This specific variety is a rarity within a rarity, as 1843 is scarce to begin with. If I'd spurned this opportunity I might have been waiting a long time for another. So many thanks to Ian.

DFF 1843 REV-crop.jpg

DFF 1843 OBV-crop.jpg

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Pleased to have been able to help Mike, just one more bit of the jigsaw to go!

Happy hunting.

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15 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Very pleased to obtain one of the last pieces of the jigsaw in the Victorian copper penny series I've been collecting for the last year. It's an 1843 DFF Bramah 3b type, in perhaps near VF. Private buy agreed with Ian a day or two ago, and just received today. Despite a careful lookout and a daily dedicated search of e bay 1843's since last April, I haven't previously seen one. Nor any at auction. Over the last 17 years, 4 have been sold at LCA, in 2013, 2014, 2016 and 2018, but they were all of very low grade, sub fine. 

This specific variety is a rarity within a rarity, as 1843 is scarce to begin with. If I'd spurned this opportunity I might have been waiting a long time for another. So many thanks to Ian.

DFF 1843 REV-crop.jpg

DFF 1843 OBV-crop.jpg

I take it this die got re-used in 1844. Presumably you've got one of those.

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Posted (edited)

Not quite an acquisition of the week , but another one that was in the bulk lot that threw up the F28 earlier in the year . 1831 W.W Penny .Not the prettiest (especially the reverse) ,but it fills a gap, that would probably have never been filled .

1831 Penny P1458 W.W  obv .jpg

1831 Penny P1458 .jpg

Edited by mick1271
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Posted (edited)

1831 Penny P1458 W.W  rev .jpg

Edited by mick1271

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4 minutes ago, mick1271 said:

1831 Penny P1458 W.W  rev .jpg

I notice some of these W.W's, including mine (which is better condition than this, say Fine), have a weakly struck FID:  It's very unusual for a Royal Mint 19th century copper coin to have such noticeable weakness in the legend like that.

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1 minute ago, oldcopper said:

I notice some of these W.W's, including mine (which is better condition than this, say Fine), have a weakly struck FID:  It's very unusual for a Royal Mint 19th century copper coin to have such noticeable weakness in the legend like that.

I had noticed that , but put it down to wear as it has been through the wars a bit.Interesting to know that it is a known anomaly .It was worse than that , but some acetone took the worse of the gunk off .

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5 hours ago, alfnail said:

Pleased to have been able to help Mike, just one more bit of the jigsaw to go!

Happy hunting.

Thanks a lot Ian, much appreciated. Will now be saving exclusively for the last piece in the jigsaw.

4 hours ago, mick1271 said:

Not quite an acquisition of the week , but another one that was in the bulk lot that threw up the F28 earlier in the year . 1831 W.W Penny .Not the prettiest (especially the reverse) ,but it fills a gap, that would probably have never been filled .

1831 Penny P1458 W.W  obv .jpg

1831 Penny P1458 .jpg

Ah, the scarcer no stop before first W.

5 hours ago, oldcopper said:

I take it this die got re-used in 1844. Presumably you've got one of those.

Yes indeed. Although only seen two, the one I bought, and another one currently on offer with Coopers Coins. So they're also few and far between. 

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20 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Very pleased to obtain one of the last pieces of the jigsaw in the Victorian copper penny series I've been collecting for the last year. It's an 1843 DFF Bramah 3b

Well done Mike. I got mine completely by chance as I didn't know it was a DFF until years after I'd bought it. I read somewhere about it and checked my coins and there it was !

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48 minutes ago, secret santa said:

Well done Mike. I got mine completely by chance as I didn't know it was a DFF until years after I'd bought it. I read somewhere about it and checked my coins and there it was !

Thanks Richard. I would say that is is, without doubt, the most difficult of the circulated Victoria copper penny series to obtain. Even more so than the 1854/3 and the 1854 no colon variety. Thanks to Ian I've now bought one, but there were none on the open market.   

Obviously the 1843 is a rare penny in and of itself. Ian's figures showed that maybe just over 11 in every 100 1843 pennies extant, is a DFF type, which considerably amplifies that already existing rarity. 

 

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A bit more information around those 1843DFF figures Mike.

My 5 year study of all ebay listings was between Sept 2007 and Sept 2012. There were 15 DFF's out of 130 listings of 1843's. 

I think it likely that this is a fairly accurate reflection of true (minted) proportions, as I do not believe that many people were collecting Bramah variations at that time. For example, see Richard's comments where he got one by luck! The coin I have just sold you was the best example from those 15 on ebay during that period.

If I were to repeat the study now (which I will NOT be doing) then there is no way that you would see the same proportion of DFF's as there were approx. 10 to 15 years ago. More collectors have been looking for Bramah varieties since then, and most are now tucked away in collections. This is reflected by the fact that you have unsuccessfully searched high and low for one yourself for over a year. 

The same could be said for the 1844 DFF's, seen on both the 'Plain Tail' 4's and the 'Tails Up' 4's.

I have done a breakdown of all the 1844's seen in the same 5 year period, and this is shown in the table below. Note that there were 60 examples of 1844 DFF's, highlighted in Yellow, so about 1 in 5 of 1844's had this 'feature' during my 5 year study. However, you have only seen 2 in the time you have been building your own collection of this series.

Hope the table makes sense, and is clear enough to read; the first split is based on being able to see the numeral 4's clearly enough to determine type.

Also note that the 'Tails Up' style of numeral 4 is clearly much more difficult than Plain 4, although there is a higher proportion of DFF's on 'Tails Up' numeral 4 type!!

image.png.ae8e15f69aee25b4a6b8d0b04b3f2f1b.png

It's not really an F of course!!

1072117438_DEFF_E.jpg.efc870c9129f331b63700f09218ec653.jpg

 

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1 hour ago, alfnail said:

A bit more information around those 1843DFF figures Mike.

My 5 year study of all ebay listings was between Sept 2007 and Sept 2012. There were 15 DFF's out of 130 listings of 1843's. 

I think it likely that this is a fairly accurate reflection of true (minted) proportions, as I do not believe that many people were collecting Bramah variations at that time. For example, see Richard's comments where he got one by luck! The coin I have just sold you was the best example from those 15 on ebay during that period.

If I were to repeat the study now (which I will NOT be doing) then there is no way that you would see the same proportion of DFF's as there were approx. 10 to 15 years ago. More collectors have been looking for Bramah varieties since then, and most are now tucked away in collections. This is reflected by the fact that you have unsuccessfully searched high and low for one yourself for over a year. 

The same could be said for the 1844 DFF's, seen on both the 'Plain Tail' 4's and the 'Tails Up' 4's.

I have done a breakdown of all the 1844's seen in the same 5 year period, and this is shown in the table below. Note that there were 60 examples of 1844 DFF's, highlighted in Yellow, so about 1 in 5 of 1844's had this 'feature' during my 5 year study. However, you have only seen 2 in the time you have been building your own collection of this series.

Hope the table makes sense, and is clear enough to read; the first split is based on being able to see the numeral 4's clearly enough to determine type.

Also note that the 'Tails Up' style of numeral 4 is clearly much more difficult than Plain 4, although there is a higher proportion of DFF's on 'Tails Up' numeral 4 type!!

image.png.ae8e15f69aee25b4a6b8d0b04b3f2f1b.png

It's not really an F of course!!

1072117438_DEFF_E.jpg.efc870c9129f331b63700f09218ec653.jpg

 

Thanks for the above Ian. Once again, fantastically useful information. 

Interesting you say that not many were collecting Bramah variations at that time. Do you think that Bramah has had something of a renaissance since then? I must admit, I don't see him referred to very often - only by the more experienced sellers. It's a pity his book has only one edition and is so rare. Many, probably most, must have been lost or destroyed since the original publication in 1929, over 90 years ago, and we are left with mainly high priced ex library copies. Maybe there should be a re-print of his book. Copyright expires 70 years after the author's death, and as Bramah died in 1942, that 70 years was reached in 2012. I wonder if Rotographic would entertain this idea. Or maybe those who own a copy of the original book would prefer to keep things the way they are.

But of course, whatever the reason, you are spot on, as it's clear that very few DFF's of even 1844 are available nowadays. Between 2007 and 2012, it would not have been too difficult to get one. So the figures are conclusive, then and now.  

     

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Hi Mike,

There is also a first edition of Bramah (rarely seen) with a different coloured binder. I believe it has exactly the same contents as the one usually seen, with blue binder, apart from a missing flysheet saying first published in 1929.  

I would personally be happy to see a re-print of Bramah, even though it would surely devalue my own copy! 

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I have decided to chance a dozen ‘bun head’ pennies from my collection on ebay; all but one will be on open auction starting between 8 and 9 p.m. this evening.

I wanted to describe them myself as there are a few unusual ones, including 2 which are now in MG’s updated pages and one from Hiram Brown’s collection, and I wasn’t sure that an auction house would do them justice. Also, I’m thinking that with lack of BP then I may still get a decent price…….now hoping it’s a decision I won’t regret…………be an interesting exercise if nothing else!!

It may be an opportunity for some members to add to their collections.

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40 minutes ago, alfnail said:

I have decided to chance a dozen ‘bun head’ pennies from my collection on ebay; all but one will be on open auction starting between 8 and 9 p.m. this evening.

I wanted to describe them myself as there are a few unusual ones, including 2 which are now in MG’s updated pages and one from Hiram Brown’s collection, and I wasn’t sure that an auction house would do them justice. Also, I’m thinking that with lack of BP then I may still get a decent price…….now hoping it’s a decision I won’t regret…………be an interesting exercise if nothing else!!

It may be an opportunity for some members to add to their collections.

Maybe you could post a link in the For Sale section for those of us who don't know your Ebay handle?

 

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55 minutes ago, alfnail said:

be an interesting exercise if nothing else!!

I'll be very interested to see how they progress as I have the feeling that penny collectors of the more esoteric varieties are dwindling.

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1 hour ago, Paddy said:

Maybe you could post a link in the For Sale section for those of us who don't know your Ebay handle?

Will do thanks Paddy, although think that can only be done once they have been listed, currently scheduled for later this evening.

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5 hours ago, alfnail said:

Hi Mike,

There is also a first edition of Bramah (rarely seen) with a different coloured binder. I believe it has exactly the same contents as the one usually seen, with blue binder, apart from a missing flysheet saying first published in 1929.  

I would personally be happy to see a re-print of Bramah, even though it would surely devalue my own copy! 

Mine too - and therein lies the problem. A reluctance to go for a re-print because of that. Probably explains why it's not happened.

However, as long as there are some in existence, albeit expensive and very hard to get, it's not too much of a problem.  

4 hours ago, secret santa said:

I'll be very interested to see how they progress as I have the feeling that penny collectors of the more esoteric varieties are dwindling.

I'm not sure about that. You may be right of course, but I can't say I've seen any decline in interest. If there is it may perhaps reflect a lack of technical knowledge amongst the newer collectors, who will no doubt catch up in time. Any rate, as you say, it'll be interesting to see.  

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On 3/7/2021 at 10:27 PM, alfnail said:

Here is webpage for my 'bun head' penny sales, right click and then 'open in new window'

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/alfnail/m.html?item=402732525067&hash=item5dc4baa60b%3Ag%3AH48AAOSwQdhgQ4nS&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2562

 

How did the sales go, Ian? I know there were bids for all of them, but I missed the final hammer, as it were. Now only the two buy it now's left. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, 1949threepence said:

How did the sales go, Ian? I know there were bids for all of them, but I missed the final hammer, as it were. Now only the two buy it now's left. 

Not really for Ians coins as sure he will get back to you Mike but if you want to look at any that have sold.

If you look at the left hand side and scroll down to Show Only and then tick the completed listings box it will show you the finished sales.

Edited by PWA 1967
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58 minutes ago, PWA 1967 said:

Not really for Ians coins as sure he will get back to you Mike but if you want to look at any that have sold.

If you look at the left hand side and scroll down to Show Only and then tick the completed listings box it will show you the finished sales.

Brilliant - cheers Pete.

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2 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

How did the sales go, Ian? I know there were bids for all of them, but I missed the final hammer, as it were. Now only the two buy it now's left. 

Hi Mike, it's always painful to see part of your collection disappear, but I think my decision to place them on ebay was the right one. I chose pieces where I felt an auction house may not do them full justice in the event that my family sell them off one day when I'm not around. I'm thinking that the ones I may keep in my collection will be those where I can be sure that an auction house will get a decent price (i.e. easily recognised varieties) even if the person offering them for sale doesn't have much of a clue. 

It's also nice to see who bought your coins and, in many cases, I know they will remain in good hands and be cherished. I have already had several positive feedbacks and people asking me if I will be doing this again.

I will probably sell another nice group on ebay when the clocks go back, after they first go forward..........so you can see I'm not planning to depart this world just yet! 

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1 hour ago, alfnail said:

Hi Mike, it's always painful to see part of your collection disappear, but I think my decision to place them on ebay was the right one. I chose pieces where I felt an auction house may not do them full justice in the event that my family sell them off one day when I'm not around. I'm thinking that the ones I may keep in my collection will be those where I can be sure that an auction house will get a decent price (i.e. easily recognised varieties) even if the person offering them for sale doesn't have much of a clue. 

It's also nice to see who bought your coins and, in many cases, I know they will remain in good hands and be cherished. I have already had several positive feedbacks and people asking me if I will be doing this again.

I will probably sell another nice group on ebay when the clocks go back, after they first go forward..........so you can see I'm not planning to depart this world just yet! 

I should hope not Ian.

Once Pete had pointed out where the sold listings were, I had a look and noticed you got quite decent prices for most of them, and some were very well contested. Although somebody obviously got a bargain with the F105, which is a nice specimen.       

Looking forward to the next sale in the Autumn.

 

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