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Penny Acquisition of the week

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There were a lot of nice 1860 penny die repairs in the bulk lot of Hiram Brown pennies I bought, here are a few close-ups.

1860 F10 doubled 6 in date.jpg

1860 F10 doubled Y in penny.jpg

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More, and an interesting 'third colon dot' on a Gouby G penny, I think it's a BP1860V and perhaps represents an incompletely filled original colon dot at the time the colon was re-entered.

1860 F13 double struck N in PENNY.jpg

1860 F15 Gouby BP1860V incompletely filled colon.jpg

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Posted (edited)

I also wonder whether this is a F10 with the second N in PENNY over an inverted N, certainly it appears to have the extra serif lower right but this area is badly affected by a die flaw and it is impossible to be sure it is not artefact.

image164.jpg

image163.jpg

Edited by jelida

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more photos of the 'N'.

image162.jpg

1860 F10 N over upside down N in PENNY (1).jpg

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3 hours ago, jelida said:

An 1897 'Dot' penny from an end-stage die, £10 on Ebay. This die as you can see is worn and cracked, though a hint of lustre remains. Have you seen a later example?

image179.jpg

image178.jpg

Ah, thanks Jerry. I'd not seen any example before this one.

So you think this was when the "dot" was disintegrating, as opposed to forming?

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Posted (edited)

Its a bit coincidental Jerry but was only talking to Michael Gouby yesterday about these 1898 Pennies as a couple of forum members know.

The picture of this one (my own ) is not in Gouby and now attributed by Michael as BP1898Ab 11 Teeth wide date.

The picture of your 1898 is now attributed by Michael is BP1898Ba 10-75 Teeth Bisect and a slightly different font than just 1898B and not 11 Teeth......Although its not 100% clear on your picture Terry has a really good image that hopefully he will share.

1898wd-800-frameddate.jpg

Edited by PWA 1967

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1 hour ago, 1949threepence said:

Ah, thanks Jerry. I'd not seen any example before this one.

So you think this was when the "dot" was disintegrating, as opposed to forming?

I am pretty sure this is a very late stage of the ‘dot’ die, it’s now really just a ‘blob’ where three cracks converge. I have seen earlier stages of this die flaw, the round dot I think being the start of the flaw. Any other thoughts? I know these dot pennies have been discussed before.

Jerry

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1 hour ago, PWA 1967 said:

Its a bit coincidental Jerry but was only talking to Michael Gouby yesterday about these 1898 Pennies as a couple of forum members know.

The picture of this one (my own ) is not in Gouby and now attributed by Michael as BP1898Ab 11 Teeth wide date.

The picture of your 1898 is now attributed by Michael is BP1898Ba 10-75 Teeth Bisect and a slightly different font than just 1898B and not 11 Teeth......Although its not 100% clear on your picture Terry has a really good image that hopefully he will share.

1898wd-800-frameddate.jpg

Thanks Pete. Lovely coin! I think I have a ‘wide date’ 1898 somewhere, will see if I have photos. 
 

Jerry

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Here is my wide date 1898 Pete, I think it is 11 teeth too, so BP1898Ab too.

Jerry

image186.jpg

image185.jpg

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Posted (edited)

Hi Jerry , I think Pete is referring to the Two different date widths of the BP1898B    with the straight crossing centre bars of the last 8 .   Your new example looks as though its the narrower type 10.75 tooth now classified as BP1898Ba , top example in the picture below.   The bottom example in the picture shown below is the wider one  at 11 teeth with the 8 over a tooth , Pete hasn't said but would probably be BP1898Bb.

169043819_1898date.JPG.0ebf755c2fc1bc26204454d234e9b023.JPG

 

 

Edited by terrysoldpennies
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Sorry if i have confused things Terry.

Your top picture is BP1898Ba....New variety.

Second picture BP1898B.....As it has always been.

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Thanks both, most interesting,  my other three ‘eight bisects’ 1898 are all the previous BP1898B variety, nice to add the BP1898Ba, unknowingly!  Any idea of the relative rarities?

Jerry

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1 hour ago, PWA 1967 said:

Sorry if i have confused things Terry.

Your top picture is BP1898Ba....New variety.

Second picture BP1898B.....As it has always been.

Thanks for that clarification Pete,   and not sure as to the rarity of each type.

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8 hours ago, jelida said:

 1897 'Dot' penny,  close-up of developed flaw.

image177.jpg

I can see the flaw but wondering where the dot is?

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4 minutes ago, secret santa said:

I'm not sure it's in the right place.

My thoughts exactly.

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32 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

My thoughts exactly.

It's a source of great curiosity to me - for the simple reason that the dot itself is so perfectly symmetrical. Its non random look might lend weight to the theory that it was placed there deliberately for some unknown reason.

Set against that, of course, is Freeman's notion, that specimens have been seen similar to Jerry's at either the beginning or end of the dot's "life cycle".     

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18 hours ago, jelida said:

A cheap 1875H penny, spent a week on Ebay and sold for £81. Not perfect, but good lustre and interesting, a die match with LCA 144 lot 1860 2.3.14 with a raised line in the exergue below the 1 of the date, a poor repair of linear circle. There are other die repairs too, worthy of note is re-engraving around the crossing of the trident and forearm to make the trident shaft stand out. This coin looks much nicer in hand than photos! 

 

image176.jpg

image175.jpg

You got some nice pieces there Jerry. Think I was the under bidder on this 1875H, which was being sold as a likely forgery...…….but it looked bona fide to me too!

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10 hours ago, secret santa said:

I'm not sure it's in the right place.

1678694729_1897F147dotzoom.JPG.209cd4c45e30ef938b5ffd6444cc09fd.JPG

No, that is certainly different. There have been a number on the ‘bay sold as ‘dot’ pennies with raised mark consistent with the ‘blob’ on mine, which is something to watch out for, clearly not the true Freeman dot.

Jerry

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On 14 April 2020 at 9:13 PM, jelida said:

Thanks both, most interesting,  my other three ‘eight bisects’ 1898 are all the previous BP1898B variety, nice to add the BP1898Ba, unknowingly!  Any idea of the relative rarities?

Jerry

Very interesting to learn therefore that at least 2 dies must have been used for these "bisects"! It prompted me to check mine...

Like you, Jerry, I have found that I have 3 of the original BP1898B variety (one near ef, the other two only fair) but pleasingly my other one (sadly only fair again) turns out to be a BP1898Ba type. I know this is a very small sample size, but 3 to 1 might just about be representative??

Any other members got one/more than one to push the sample group bigger? Indeed, any guesses as to how many of either type are now known?

 

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Just buy plenty of bulk lots of pennies. They might be low grade, but will give you the info you need.

I've got 15 or 20 kgs here just waiting for the lockdown to lift, and absolutely no desire to check for miniscule variations in tooth pointings.

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8 hours ago, Rob said:

Just buy plenty of bulk lots of pennies. They might be low grade, but will give you the info you need.

I've got 15 or 20 kgs here just waiting for the lockdown to lift, and absolutely no desire to check for miniscule variations in tooth pointings.

ditto

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On 4/14/2020 at 9:13 PM, jelida said:

Thanks both, most interesting,  my other three ‘eight bisects’ 1898 are all the previous BP1898B variety, nice to add the BP1898Ba, unknowingly!  Any idea of the relative rarities?

Jerry

About 5 /6 years ago i was the underbidder on the 1898 wide date in LCA that sold for £150+.Since then i have looked at hundereds if not thousands and a lot scarcer.I have found 4 decent ones (well 3 as Jon on here spotted one for me on facebook over 2 years ago ) so should say bought 4.The one you have i bought in America and Damian sold you on eBay ,another i Let Terry have as again you dont see them so often.I have a spare in a CGS slab graded 70 (just wide date on the slab ,the one Jon spotted) and then the one pictured in an NGC slab.I have had perhaps about 15 others but all really low grade similar to the one that sold for £29 in LCA which is the same one that sold about 15 years previously for £90.

The narrow date bisect is also much scarcer than the wider one ,much more than 1/3 IMO and have never seen one better than VG to Fine other than your own.

As Ian said to me a few years ago "have you got a thing about these 1898 pennies " which although sad 😃 was when i was quite ill and looking every day. 

So i have looked at a lot ,however there will be plenty more turn up if someone wants one ,which they probably dont.😃

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1 hour ago, PWA 1967 said:

The narrow date bisect is also much scarcer than the wider one ,much more than 1/3 IMO and have never seen one better than VG to Fine other than your own.

Bought this one on ebay in 2006, marked it up as unusual 8 and put in storage. When MG's book came out in 2009 I re-categorised as his type B and made a note that date wasn't as wide as in his book, and that I should write to him to advise. I then forgot about that until now...…………..brain's going, thank goodness for Pete!

1898Ba.jpg

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