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Paulus

Penny Acquisition of the week

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35 minutes ago, Paddy said:

... and here is the second. 1874 Penny - after much peering at images both in the book and online I am still not certain if this is Obverse 7 or 8. The curve of the top lip looks 8 but the ribbons look 7. Reverse I think is G. Please put me right!

 

 

1874 D 8+G 2 Red.JPG

It's an obverse 7 Freeman 70, Paddy. Here's an obverse 8 - the difference is very subtle, but note the slightly straighter, longer nose, with a shorter gap between nose and lip:-

 

obverse 8.jpg

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48 minutes ago, Paddy said:

After a prolonged period of abstinence I have picked up a bunch of reasonably decent Victoria Pennies. Two I would appreciate opinions on.

Here is the first - 1869 penny. Apart from the obvious damage, is there any problem with it? I know there are lots of forgeries of this date around, but I can't see any fault with this one - anyone spot anything I have missed?

 

1869 D 6+G 1 Red.JPG

1869 D 6+G 2 Red.JPG

Sound as a pound genuine.

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2 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

I am still not certain if this is Obverse 7 or 8

The biggest difference between 7 and 8 for me is the gap between the tie ribbons - obverse 8 has a thicker outer ribbon and the 2 ribbons virtually touch for the first half of their length (i.e. almost no gap between them).

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56 minutes ago, secret santa said:

I am still not certain if this is Obverse 7 or 8

 As Richard says the 7 has a narrow ribbon , with the 8 being wide , and as the obv.8 can only be found on Royal Mint 1874s its a good identifier ,  but it might be of interest to some that the Obv 7 on the 7+g  F71 1874H has a slightly wider ribbon than is to be found on the normal Obv 7 .  As far as I can tell all the other combinations of 1874 and 1874H  with  Obv. 7  have the narrowest ribbon.    I think I read about this in freeman, who thought it was a transition feature between 7 and 8 ,                                              Examples below in order   8 / wide ribbon 7  /  narrow ribbon 7

1382878529_8Obv.jpg.14896b3430f2ca2224b2c99f6c951239.jpg1586199481_7HeatonwithRevGribbonslightlywider.jpg.0403f84eef24f31771f052695bcdfa99.jpg58977462_7foundallotherObv7s.jpg.8ab65d5dabab44f4eb03a2ed49db648d.jpg

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The die on the middle one and right one Terry dont look the same to me ,with other differences such as the fishtail on both ribbons are you sure they are both OBV 7 ?

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56 minutes ago, secret santa said:

None of my 3 F71's have this wider ribbon.

I'm surprised to here you say that Richard.   Here are three worn examples .   8+h  /  7+g /  7+h    Note the gap between the ribbons is wider on both the 7s , and if yours are different then there are two types of 7+g  F71. I have only found this type on the 1874H  :D

DSCN2498.JPG.e06b603c56afd2fefae66bbbe6332d40.JPG

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The second one looks like OBV 8 ☺️ but think i may be confusing myself :D

 

Edited by PWA 1967

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15 minutes ago, PWA 1967 said:

The second one looks like OBV 8 ☺️ but think i may be confusing myself :D

 

Too thin Pete. Obv 8 ribbon is thicker, as in Terry's first example.

I agree though, it can be a sod to tell the difference sometimes, especially with the naked eye and on worn coins. That's why I also look at the nose - admittedly not easy at first glance either.  

ETA: and with there evidently being more than one type of Obv 7 ribbon, that merely adds to the potential confusion. I'd add a pic of my F71 obv, but I'm at work so haven't got access to my coins. 

Edited by 1949threepence

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Perhaps not the rarest of dates but I like it. IMO I think bronze coins with some toning look better than the mint lustre ones. 1863 penny.

img018.jpg

Edited by ozjohn
More info.
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Terry, the middle picture above which you describe as F71 with wider ribbon is actually my 1874H F73 7 over 7 !

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18 minutes ago, secret santa said:

Terry, the middle picture above which you describe as F71 with wider ribbon is actually my 1874H F73 7 over 7 !

Yes i thought they were different Richard and was using the ones above as being the only examples pictured.

I am sure if you look at the full pictures of the coin Terry the difference will be more obvious with the nose etc

Wish i was able to do some work instead of being bored daft :D

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The Bronze Coinage of Great Britain  Freeman , page 74  number 18    latest edition .     I took pictures from all over so as to compile this, so I hope you don't mind , but your right, but my 7 0ver 7 has the narrow ribbon as I note some of the others seem to be of both types.  

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3 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Too thin Pete. Obv 8 ribbon is thicker, as in Terry's first example.

I agree though, it can be a sod to tell the difference sometimes, especially with the naked eye and on worn coins. That's why I also look at the nose - admittedly not easy at first glance either.  

ETA: and with there evidently being more than one type of Obv 7 ribbon, that merely adds to the potential confusion. I'd add a pic of my F71 obv, but I'm at work so haven't got access to my coins. 

Yes Mike your right ,what i should of perhaps typed is looks more like OBV 8 as all appeared different ☺️

They still often confuse me and when buying them and they are a few quid like to get a second opinion if i am not sure ,as a couple of forum members know who i am grateful.

Even more so when i have got them wrong :D

 

Edited by PWA 1967

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I've looked at Freeman's footnote 18 and have now added a comment with photos to the Obverse L (Freeman 8) section of my varieties website. But in the grand scheme of things it does seem a trifling difference (IMO) !

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Following an email from Bernie, I've added a pic of the ribbons on an F76 obverse where the ribbons are no thicker but seem to be closer together !

Edited by secret santa

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1 hour ago, secret santa said:

Following an email from Bernie, I've added a pic of the ribbons on an F76 obverse where the ribbons are no thicker but seem to be closer together !

Interesting,  it looks like they were trying out different designs for some reason. ?

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On 2/8/2019 at 9:34 AM, secret santa said:

I've looked at Freeman's footnote 18 and have now added a comment with photos to the Obverse L (Freeman 8) section of my varieties website. But in the grand scheme of things it does seem a trifling difference (IMO) !

In a email conversation I had with Michael Freeman he stated the following with regard to issuing Freeman numbers versus Footnotes.

I had a firm rule that I would never include in my catalogue any coin unless I myself had actually examined one.

and

If I were to write the book again, I would still not assign a catalogue number to any "dot" variety; but would still be consistent, and mention it in a footnote.

I have a feeling he must have examined the 1897 dot however. 

 

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1 hour ago, RLC35 said:

In a email conversation I had with Michael Freeman he stated the following with regard to issuing Freeman numbers versus Footnotes.

I had a firm rule that I would never include in my catalogue any coin unless I myself had actually examined one.

and

If I were to write the book again, I would still not assign a catalogue number to any "dot" variety; but would still be consistent, and mention it in a footnote.

I have a feeling he must have examined the 1897 dot however. 

 

Obviously an exception was made for the 147. 

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Also pleased with this 1904 penny I got from David Craddock. It's not the easiest date to get in tip top condition. Uncirculated with 95% lustre - ever so lightly toning. Unfortunately, evidence of a fingerprint on the reverse, and there is a small carbon spot on the obverse. Think I've finally resolved the colour disparity. 

 

penny 1904 obv.jpg

penny 1904 rev.jpg

Edited by 1949threepence
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My win on the DNW auction today. Not a rare or exceptional penny but it fills a monarch gap and I'm pleased with the condition! :) 

George IV penny (ex Hiram Brown), S.3823.jpg

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5 hours ago, Descartes said:

My win on the DNW auction today. Not a rare or exceptional penny but it fills a monarch gap and I'm pleased with the condition! :) 

George IV penny (ex Hiram Brown), S.3823.jpg

Gorgeous! 

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