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Paulus

Penny Acquisition of the week

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Hat off ... do you still have a list your selling ?

Alternatively do you update the rare varieties on your site ?.

Pete.

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43 minutes ago, secret santa said:

Hi Terry

Lockdales didn't know what it was and their estimate was £20-30 but someone else knew as they bid me up to £130. Time will tell whether it was a bargain.

R

Well done , Its got to worth much more than that , its an R17 - R18 and with the New Freeman book only just having come onto the market , the price should only go one way  Terry

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I update the rare penny site every time I come across a new specimen. This one will go up when I receive it and photograph it.

R

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Need to send you a few pictures again although some of my other scarce ones you dont seem to bothered about..

Andy Scott sale 3 plumes as an example,

F8 F9 F41...... :)

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1 hour ago, secret santa said:

I update the rare penny site every time I come across a new specimen. This one will go up when I receive it and photograph it.

R

My Gouby X isn't on there :ph34r: I'm sure I sent some pics, but if I haven't then my fault haha

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My system of recording rare penny transactions is not foolproof by any means - I hadn't logged the A Scott 3 plumes coin but I've now been back to Spink's website and retrieved the pictures and will add them to my website. Please do keep pointing out omissions as that's the only way that I'll build up a pictures of the populations of these rarities.

R

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My Gouby X isn't on there :ph34r: I'm sure I sent some pics, but if I haven't then my fault haha

I'm going to remove the 1911 Gouby X sometime as it's not as rare as the other coins up there.

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The gouby x 1911 is scarce but not rare ....i have 7 and sold a few duplicates.

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2 hours ago, terrysoldpennies said:

Well done , Its got to worth much more than that , its an R17 - R18 and with the New Freeman book only just having come onto the market , the price should only go one way  Terry

The only way to get an accurate rarity with respect to the Freeman estimates will be for an individual to review all the (individual) F10's on the market, past present and future, and extrapolate the proportion of 2* coins identified.  I feel that I must have seen 2-3 hundred since I started looking, searching the bay, LCA past sales , dealers lists etc but sadly I did not keep a record for accuracy and to avoid duplication. This exercise could still be undertaken, though the highlighting of the five known examples might skew the figures, perhaps excluding them and starting afresh would be most accurate.  Hovever say one in a hundred F10 had the new obverse, the new coin would have a rarity of R15. One in two hundred would give R16,  and one in a thousand would be R17 to R18. My own feeling is that it will end up R 15 to R16.

Still a scarce coin.

Jerry

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1 hour ago, jelida said:

The only way to get an accurate rarity with respect to the Freeman estimates will be for an individual to review all the (individual) F10's on the market, past present and future, and extrapolate the proportion of 2* coins identified.  I feel that I must have seen 2-3 hundred since I started looking, searching the bay, LCA past sales , dealers lists etc but sadly I did not keep a record for accuracy and to avoid duplication. This exercise could still be undertaken, though the highlighting of the five known examples might skew the figures, perhaps excluding them and starting afresh would be most accurate.  Hovever say one in a hundred F10 had the new obverse, the new coin would have a rarity of R15. One in two hundred would give R16,  and one in a thousand would be R17 to R18. My own feeling is that it will end up R 15 to R16.

Still a scarce coin.

Jerry

Jerry, the thing which is going to make the 2* rarer, is that it can only be identified if in a reasonable condition, coins like the F41 can be washers and still be clearly of the type.     Richard one coin I consider to be much rarer than the R9 given be Freeman is the 1909  F192     2+e  ,  I do think its rare enough to be on your list    Terry

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Gouby X is rare enough for me not to find/get one for peanuts

I

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40 minutes ago, terrysoldpennies said:

Richard one coin I consider to be much rarer than the R9 given be Freeman is the 1909  F192     2+e  ,  I do think its rare enough to be on your list    Terry

You may be right Terry - I'll go through the records and have a look at how many 2+E (F169) specimens have been sold.

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1909 1 to tooth I have found is rarer then the open 3 1903

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9 hours ago, terrysoldpennies said:

Jerry, the thing which is going to make the 2* rarer, is that it can only be identified if in a reasonable condition, coins like the F41 can be washers and still be clearly of the type.

Possibly, but there are many varieties that can only be identified in reasonable condition, and Freeman's rarity estimates take that into account as they were based on study of worn, ex circulation coins, ie they reflect what was identifiable at the time of his study, rather than the absolute numbers struck. I think the new F10 should be identifiable in grades above VG, as there are several letter/tooth relationships that could be used. As well as the A of Victoria, the colon between F:D to a gap, rather than tooth for example.

Either way, it would be nice to have some accurate ratios based on the current population of F10's.

Jerry

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I agree Jerry but with the probable thousands of F10s around the world, we aren't going to get this analysis in a hurry. The fact that the new 2*+D is only (so far) found paired with reverse D* (curved rockline) suggests that it was not minted in huge numbers but then the fact that 3 of the known examples are around Unc suggests that there may be many of them, unless they were early strikings at a time when people were putting away shiny examples of the new-fangled bronze coinage ?

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But it would still be possible to take a note of all the F10's that appear on Ebay and dealers lists, even a sample of a few hundred would be a start. Perhaps I had better start counting.

It is a strange coin. The die looks well used, some loss of definition in the hair above the ear and of course the pretty terminal cracks. There are also numerous letter repairs, note the doubling of the serifs of several letters in Victoria. Mine is from the same die as yours. Could it have been from an experimental phase of the bronze penny development, perhaps using inadequately hardened die or greater striking pressures? There ought to be greater numbers struck from the die in its un-repaired state, but this doesn't seem to be the case. And I dont see it as the first F10. The reverse is also a multiply repaired die. Altogether a puzzle. 

Jerry

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Don't know if it helps with the chronology at all, but I have an F10 where the reverse Es are weak to the point where the first one has the middle bar nearly filled, and the second E with the bottom bar quite filled.

img150.jpg

img152.jpg

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3 hours ago, Rob said:

Don't know if it helps with the chronology at all, but I have an F10 where the reverse Es are weak to the point where the first one has the middle bar nearly filled, and the second E with the bottom bar quite filled.

img150.jpg

img152.jpg

Colon after DG to gap, brooch complete....looks like an F13 to me, but a really nice one!  The reverse die filling is interesting, would be nice to tie it to a repaired example, but would probably need die cracks etc to demonstrate continuity.

Jerry

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Call it F whatever you want. Happy to bow to superior knowledge. It's a prooflike reverse unc type example early bronze penny to me. I just went off the ticket, which I'll change. :)

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19 hours ago, Rob said:

Don't know if it helps with the chronology at all, but I have an F10 where the reverse Es are weak to the point where the first one has the middle bar nearly filled, and the second E with the bottom bar quite filled.

img150.jpg

img152.jpg

Thanks for your post Rob.

I think that the repaired F13 you seek may well be Gouby type BP 1860 La (E +d), which he describes on Page 37 of his 2009 book, saying ‘Known 1’.

I attach Obverse / Reverse pictures of my own La specimen, and will immediately follow these with close ups of the two ‘E’ repairs. I am sure my coin is his type La, although interesting that the E of ONE repair on my coin still has a portion of the middle bar missing.

As far as I can see my coin does not have any reverse die cracks, but the obverse does have a large one to the RHS of HONI………which I cannot see on your own coin. I find the use of die cracks to demonstrate continuity a very interesting subject.

1860La Reverse.jpg

1860La Obverse.jpg

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Apologies there is a reverse die crack through the right hand prong of the trident, sorry about that. 

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That is very convincing, Ian, could well be the same reverse die after repair.  And super close-up photos.

Jerry

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My coin has no serifs to the bottom of the first I in VICTORIA and the F, plus on the reverse there is a long vertical flaw leaning slightly right passing through the centre point of the 8 from the rim to just under the hemline above, but quite faint once it hits the ground. And there is no sign of the underlying E in ONE which would have to mean that mine was before it was recut unless it is a third incarnation with the field polished sufficiently to remove the original. That's possible given the underlying E in ONE on yours is not parallel to the linear circle, which mine is. My LCW is not well formed either

Edited by Rob

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Here is the aforementioned trident flaw, also a close up of the numeral 8.

If my coin has a trident flaw which Rob’s doesn’t, but Rob’s has an 8 flaw which mine doesn’t, then by my reckoning that must mean the two coins have been struck from different reverse dies.   

Trident.jpg

8.jpg

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