1p varieties

[AardHawk 73]

This excellent topic http://www.predecimal.com/forum/topic/8211-portcullis-varieties-on-decimal-penny/ and its more recent contributions prompted me to complete my 1p varieties survey.

Some history. There are only three major articles regarding decimal bronze coinage that include details of 1 pence varieties published in contemporary magazines:-

Decimal Bronze 1/2, 1 & 2 pence varieties, Coin, 25 Jan 1980 by Iain WP Dracott, K.B.Wiles and Ron Stafford,

Addendum to Decimal Bronze, Coin Monthly, Oct 1984 by Iain WP Dracott, and finally,

Coin Varieties: Latest Discoveries, Coin Monthly, Aug 1987, by Ron Stafford.

The main points to note about these articles is that they were written by the same three people, who have cooperated on various other articles over the years, so they are aware of each others views and the other point of note is that the first two articles include an additional reverse variety that has be excluded from the third article. The excluded reverse suggests that there are two sizes of pattern on the reverse.

Prior to these articles three Letters to the editor, all in Coin Monthly,

Decimal Reverses, by E.B.Mackenzie dated July 1978, discusses 1972 Proof set reverses, a further letter, Decimal Reverses, from E.B.Mackenzie adds further information received from the Royal Mint regarding the 1972 proof set reverses and a final letter from E.B.Mackenzie, A Reverse Pattern, dated March 1979 discussing 1971 through 1978 proof set reverses. Data from these letters was included in the three main articles.

A final article, The 1990 UK Circulation Coinage, Coin Monthly, April 1991 by P.S.MacKenzie discuses differences between circulating coinage and those in the BU and proof sets.

I have looked for the different size reverses and have concluded that they don’t exist. That being the case I have continued the August 1987 series adding new obverses and reverses.

An extract of the 1987 article from Coin Monthly follows:

“Decimal pennies

 

Obverse 1

(1) 111 beads

(2) 1 of date to space

(3) I of ELIZABETH to bead

 

Obverse 2

(1) 111 beads

(2) I of date to bead

(3) I of ELIZABETH to space

 

Obverse 3

(1) 111 beads

(2) 1 of date to space

(3) I of ELIZABETH to space

 

Obverse 4

     (1)112 beads

(2) new portrait etc

(3)last I of II to bead

 

Obverse 5

(1) 109 beads

(2) as obverse 4

(3) last I of II to space

 

Reverse A

(I) III beads

(2) right leg of N in NEW to bead

(3) thin numeral 1 below portcullis

 

Reverse B

(1) 111 beads

(2) right leg of N in NEW to space

(3) thick numeral 1 below portcullis

 

Reverse C

(1) 110 beads

(2) legend now reads ONE PENNY

(3) small 1 below portcullis

 

Summary

 

Circulation   1971 - 1 A

1972 - none minted

1973-1975 - lA

1976 - lA and 1B (rare)

1977 - lA

1978-1981 - 2A

1982-1983 - 2C

1984 - 3C

1985 - 4C

1986 - 5C

 

Unc Sets  1982-1983 - 2C

                 1984 - 3C

                 1985-4C

1986 - 5C

 

Proof Sets    1971 - lA

1972-1977 - lA and 1B

1978-1981 - 2B

1982-1983 - 2C

1984 - 3C

1985 - 4C

1986 - 5C? (not seen)

NB: the reverse A Proofs are scarcer for 1972-1977, those of 1972, 76 and 77 being very scarce.

 

Notes

    The rare circulation 1976 reverse B is very hard to find. I know of only six specimens. I found only two out of 3,681 1976 pennies checked during a sortee in 1979. If anyone should stumble upon a 1975 reverse B in change, they would have a very rare coin indeed. No one knows for sure if it even exists but the 'new reverses' first seen in the Proof sets do occur on both 1975 and 1976 2 and 10 pences issued for circulation. The earliest 1976 1 B rarity I know of was found by P S Mackenzie in late 1976/early 1977. The 1985 and 1986 circulation pennies are now extremely common, there does not seem to. be any varieties, all 1985 being type 4C and all 1986 being type 5C. The earliest reported 1985 penny was found on 22 November 1985 by Mr Symes. For the 1986 penny, the first was noticed on 14 August 1986 by Mr D Price.”

 

End of Article.

New Obverses

 

Obverse 6

            (1) 111 bb.

(2) 1 of 19 lt bb.

(3) I of ELIZ to sp.

(4) Last I of II to sp.

(5) R to bb.

 

Obverse 7

            (1) 110 bb.

(2) I of 19 to sp.

(3) I of ELIZ to bb.

(4) Last I of II to bb. 

(5) R to bb.

 

Obverse 8

            (1) 110 bb.

(2) I of 19 to bb.

(3) I of ELIZ rt bb.

(4) Last I of II to bb.

(5) R rt bb.

 

Obverse 9

            (1) 109 bb. 

(2) 1 of 19 to bb.

(3) I of ELIZ to sp.

(4) Last I of II to sp.

(5)  R lt bb.

 

Obverse 10

            (1) 115 bb. 

(2) 1 of 19 sl bb.

(3) I of ELIZ rt sp,

(4) Last I of II sr bb.

(5) R lt bb.

(6) 4^th Portrait.

 

Obverse 11

(1)   110 bb.

(2)   New millennium 

(3)  I of ELIZ to sp, 

(4) Last I of II to sp.

(5) R sr bb

 

Old Reverses

 

Reverse A

            (1) 111 bb.

(2) R leg of N in NEW to bb.

(3) R leg of 2nd N to bb.
(4) P rt bb.

(5) Tall thin numeral 1 below portcullis to bb.

 

Reverse B

            (1) 111 bb.

(2) R leg of N in NEW to sp.

(3) R leg of 2nd N to sp.
(4) P to sp.

(5) Tall thick numeral 1 below portcullis.

 

Reverse C

            (1) 110 bb.

(2) R leg of N in ONE to sp.

(3) R leg of 2nd N to sp.
(4) P rt bb.

(5) Small numeral 1 below portcullis to sp.

 

New Reverses

 

Reverse D

            (1) 113 bb.

(2) R leg of N in ONE to sp.

(3) R leg of 2nd N to bb.
(4) P to sp.

(5) Small numeral 1 below portcullis sl bb.

 

Reverse E

            (1) 111 bb.

(2) R leg of N in ONE to bb.

(3) R leg of 2nd N to bb.
(4) P to bb.

(5) Small numeral 1 below portcullis rt bb.. 

 

Reverse F

            (1) 109 bb.

(2) R leg of N in ONE rt bb.

(3) R leg of 2nd N to sp.
(4) P to bb.      

(5) Small numeral 1 below portcullis sr bb. 

Notes:

 

Reverses A through C are as original but with some additional detail.

Pointings. It can be a bit confusing when discussing pointings. Which direction is one looking from? I always follow the rule of “as you read it”, so on a 1p reverse you read the NEW PENNY from the centre of the coin looking towards the rim. For example, taking the letter N of NEW you would sight from the bottom of the right hand (RH) leg, to the top of the leg and onto the boarder bead (bb) beyond.

1.      One would then say the leg points to the centre of  a boarder bead (to bb), or

2.      slightly left  or slightly right of the center of a boarder bead (sl or sr bb), or

3.      right or left of a border bead (rt or lt bb), that is to the edge of the bb or very slightly into the space between boarder beads , and finally,

4.      points between two boarder beads or in other words to the center of the space (to sp). 

 

When looking at the number 1, then the orientation is from the rim to the centre (as that’s “how you read it”).

 

Boarder beads (bb) and teeth. Beads are just teeth that don’t touch an internal or external boarder or rim.

 

Portcullises. The first report of variations in the portcullis were made by Dr R.M.Owens to Coin News in January 2013. These have become known as type 1 and type 2 portcullises. This confuses the situation slightly as the variations refer to the representations of the rivets used on the portcullis and not the actual portcullises themselves. There are two kinds of portcullis, that which was used on circulation coins from 1971 through to 1981 and on proof coins for 1971 which I call type 0 and the second type used on all other circulation, proof and brilliant uncirculated set coins and this is known as types 1 and 2.

 

1. Type 0. The vertical and horizontal parts of the portcullis do not touch each other and the vertical parts are detached from the horizontal rod above them. The rivets are in relief and the positioning of the rivets is regular and even.

2. Type 1. The vertical and horizontal parts do touch each other and the vertical parts do touch the horizontal rod above them. The rivets are in relief and the positioning of the lower two rivets on the central vertical bar varies slightly.

3. Type  2 The vertical and horizontal parts do touch each other and the vertical parts do touch the horizontal rod above them. The rivets are incuse and and the positioning of the rivets on the central vertical and lower horizontal bar vary.

Expanded Summary Obverse and Reverse pairing

 

A note regarding the reverse designations. I have added the portcullis type and rivet position subtype to the familiar reverse designation.

 

Summary

 

Circulation   1971                - 1A0

1972                - none minted

1973-75           - lA0

1976                - lA0 and 1B0 (rare)

1977                - lA0

1978-81           - 2A0

1982-83           - 2C1

1984               - 3C1

1985                - 4C1

1986–88          - 5C1

1989                - 7C1

1990-91           - 5C1

1991-92           - 5D2b and 5C2b

1992                -5F2b

1993                - 9D2b, 9F1 and 9F2b

1994                - 5C1, 5D2b and 5F1

1995-97           - 5D2b

1998-99           - 10Db2

2000                - 11D2c and 11F2b

2001-07           - 11F2b

2007-08           - 11F1

2008                - 11F2b           

 

 

BU  Sets      1982-83   - 2C1

                    1984        - 3C1

                    1985        - 4C1

                    1986-87   - 5C2a

                    1988        - 6C2a

                    1989        - 7C2a

                    1990        - 8C2a

                    1991-92   - 8E1

                    1993-97   - 8E2b

                    1998-99   - 10 E2b

                    2000-08   - 11E2b

                    2008        - 11F1             

                       

 

 

Proof Sets    1971        - lA0

1972-76   - lA? and 1B1

1977-81   - 2B1

1982-83   - 2C1

1984        - 3C1

1985        - 4C1

1986-87   - 5C2a

1988        - 6C2a

1989        - 7C2a

1990        - 8C2a

1991-92   - 8E1

1993-97   - 8E2b

1998-99   - 10E2b

2000-07   - 11E2b

2008        - 11E2b and 11F1                   

I will add pictures of the various obverses, reverses and portcullises tomorrow (with luck!).

 

 

[Ukstu 436]

Not my area but i salute you for your dedication. Quite a write up. Well done. 

Edited December 9, 2017 by Ukstu

[AardHawk 73]

1p Obverse 1

 

[AardHawk 73]

1p Obverse 2

Sorry cant upload, no more space Max total size 0.49MB. It was only 254KB

 

[Nick 325]

3 hours ago, AardHawk said:

Sorry cant upload, no more space Max total size 0.49MB. It was only 254K

If you exit the topic, then go back in, it should allow you to post more pictures.

Edited December 9, 2017 by Nick

[secret santa 2,013]

Does anyone know if Ron Stafford is still around ? I used to exchange letters but haven't heard from him for a few years.

[AardHawk 73]

1p Obverse 2

[AardHawk 73]

Obverse 3

[AardHawk 73]

Obverse 4

[AardHawk 73]

I've rejigged the expanded summary section to correct a few typos.

Summary

 

Circulation   1971                - 1A0

1972                - none minted

1973-75           - lA0

1976                - lA0, 1B0 (rare)

1977                - lA0

1978-81           - 2A0

1982-83           - 2C1

1984               - 3C1

1985                - 4C1

1986–88          - 5C1

1989                - 7C1

1990                - 5C1

1991                - 5C1,   5D2b

1992                - 5C2b, 5D2b, 5F2b

1993                - 9D2b, 9F1,    9F2b

1994                - 5C1,   5D2b, 5F1

1995-97           - 5D2b

1998-99           - 10Db2

2000                - 11D2c, 11F2b

2001-06           - 11F2b

2007                - 11F2b, 11F1

2008                - 11F2b, 11F1

 

BU  Sets      1982-83   - 2C1

                    1984        - 3C1

                    1985        - 4C1

                    1986-87   - 5C2a

                    1988        - 6C2a

                    1989        - 7C2a

                    1990        - 8C2a

                    1991-92   - 8E1

                    1993-97   - 8E2b

                    1998-99   - 10E2b

                    2000-06   - 11E2b

                    2007        - 11F2b, 11F1? (not seen)

                    2008        - 11F2b, 11F1             

                       

Proof Sets    1971        - lA0

1972-76   - lA?,  1B1

1977-81   - 2B1

1982-83   - 2C1

1984        - 3C1

1985        - 4C1

1986-87   - 5C2a

1988        - 6C2a

1989        - 7C2a

1990        - 8C2a

1991-92   - 8E1

1993-97   - 8E2b

1998-99   - 10E2b

2000-06   - 11E2b

2007        - 11E2b, 11F1? (not seen)      

2008        - 11E2b, 11F1   

 

 

 

Still cant get the editing right, hey ho. Wish I could edit the original post as this is turning into a bit of a mess and with the problems posting pictures I should be finished sometime in the new year (if I can be bothered. I'm fast loosing the will to live!).           

[zookeeperz 470]

25 minutes ago, AardHawk said:

I've rejigged the expanded summary section to correct a few typos.

Summary

 

 

 

Circulation   1971                - 1A0

1972                - none minted

 

1973-75           - lA0

1976                - lA0, 1B0 (rare)

 

1977                - lA0

1978-81           - 2A0

 

1982-83           - 2C1

1984               - 3C1

1985                - 4C1

1986–88          - 5C1

 

1989                - 7C1

 

1990                - 5C1

 

1991                - 5C1,   5D2b

 

1992                - 5C2b, 5D2b, 5F2b

 

1993                - 9D2b, 9F1,    9F2b

 

1994                - 5C1,   5D2b, 5F1

 

1995-97           - 5D2b

 

1998-99           - 10Db2

 

2000                - 11D2c, 11F2b

 

2001-06           - 11F2b

 

2007                - 11F2b, 11F1

 

2008                - 11F2b, 11F1

 

 

 

BU  Sets      1982-83   - 2C1

 

                    1984        - 3C1

 

                    1985        - 4C1

 

                    1986-87   - 5C2a

 

                    1988        - 6C2a

 

                    1989        - 7C2a

 

                    1990        - 8C2a

 

                    1991-92   - 8E1

 

                    1993-97   - 8E2b

 

                    1998-99   - 10E2b

 

                    2000-06   - 11E2b

 

                    2007        - 11F2b, 11F1? (not seen)

 

                    2008        - 11F2b, 11F1             

 

                       

 

Proof Sets    1971        - lA0

1972-76   - lA?,  1B1

 

1977-81   - 2B1

 

1982-83   - 2C1

1984        - 3C1

1985        - 4C1

1986-87   - 5C2a

 

1988        - 6C2a

 

1989        - 7C2a

 

1990        - 8C2a

 

1991-92   - 8E1

 

1993-97   - 8E2b

 

1998-99   - 10E2b

 

2000-06   - 11E2b

 

2007        - 11E2b, 11F1? (not seen)      

 

2008        - 11E2b, 11F1   

 

 

 

Still cant get the editing right, hey ho. Wish I could edit the original post as this is turning into a bit of a mess and with the problems posting pictures I should be finished sometime in the new year (if I can be bothered. I'm fast loosing the will to live!).           

yeah this system doesn't refresh itself. So whatever you post in one comment you have to refresh the page to start another or it thinks you are still posting on the same comment even though you have sent the message already.

[AardHawk 73]

Obverses 5 thru 7

[AardHawk 73]

Obverses 8 thru 11

[AardHawk 73]

Reverses A thru F

[AardHawk 73]

3 hours ago, zookeeperz said:

yeah this system doesn't refresh itself. So whatever you post in one comment you have to refresh the page to start another or it thinks you are still posting on the same comment even though you have sent the message already.

Thanks zookeeper, refreshing did the trick. Life has got its meaning back! Onward and upwards.

[AardHawk 73]

Portcullis types and rivets

[bhx7 222]

Great study. I am in the middle of going through Proof and BU varieties as there are definite variants including some early frosted and none frosted Proofs of the same year. I also noted that on the 1984 and 1985 circulation pennies there is a cross over of large and small beading, did you notice this while doing your study? Example showing the 1985 penny below.

[bhx7 222]

Here is the 1984's

[AardHawk 73]

bxh7, good spot. Pictures dont lie. I have just gone back through my '84 and '85 scans (of 30-40 coins), and though I think I can see one or two slight differences. I certainly haven't found your '85 small bb which is the stand out coin..

I'm not much good with these beads! I think the vast majority of both of my dates are large bb, with the odd smaller one. Some coins seem to have have a dozen large beads then a few smaller ones! I've just got my eye into 2p plume varieties. Maybe that is effecting my judgement

Looking forward to seeing your results.

Edited February 6, 2018 by AardHawk

[craigy 362]

new variety here ;0)    

[bhx7 222]

On 2/6/2018 at 2:27 PM, AardHawk said:

bxh7, good spot. Pictures dont lie. I have just gone back through my '84 and '85 scans (of 30-40 coins), and though I think I can see one or two slight differences. I certainly haven't found your '85 small bb which is the stand out coin..

I'm not much good with these beads! I think the vast majority of both of my dates are large bb, with the odd smaller one. Some coins seem to have have a dozen large beads then a few smaller ones! I've just got my eye into 2p plume varieties. Maybe that is effecting my judgement

Looking forward to seeing your results.

Just sat for the past few hours re-categorizing my pennies to fit in with yours AardHawk. I noted I had a few that differ from yours though:

Proof

• 1985 - you have  4+C1 maybe a variant but I have 4+C2
• 1990 – you have 8+C2a  mine is 8+E1
• 1991-1992 you have 8+E1 my 1992 is 8+C2a

From 1972-76 I have both reverse type for each year. Also I am trying to confirm a cross over variant for the 1989 Proof an 8+E2, seen but not in hand to confirm.

Circulation

All are as yours but in addition I also have a 4th 1992 variant 5+C1

Can totally understand the eye strain bit 

Cheers Brian

[bhx7 222]

Just wondering if everyone could have a look at their proof sets containing the 1p's with Rev A and Rev B - 1972 to 1976, which AardHawk  shows above, and state what they find.

I am trying to substantiate my findings  -

• First is that I noticed that the reverse B type seems to be acid etched/frosted on the design and legend with high polished ground, I did mention this once before briefly, whereas the reverse type A is just the same high polished finish throughout.
• I also found that in the sets with the Rev B 1p's the half pence also seems to be frosted.
• Lastly I am also trying to work out the ratio of type A & B within the differing years ( I know this is a big ask but even a small census may through up some insight)

I know the frosted/cameo proof becomes standard in 1980 across all coins on both obverse and reverse. I just find it interesting that it started on the lower bronze coinage first, albeit the reverse of the coin.

Thanks in advance

[Paddy 1,540]

OK - I have done that. I am not great at spotting small details but as far as I can work out:

1972 - One set, Type A, no frosting

1973 - One set, Type A, no frosting

1974 - Two sets, one type A no frosting, one type B with frosting, 1/2 P also frosted

1975 - Two sets, one Type A no frosting, one type B with frosting, 1/2 P also frosted

1976 - One set, Type A no frosting.

All the type As are in my older collection, which I have had for about 15 years and came from one auction together. The two sets with type B I picked up at a different auction about 5 years ago.

I hope that helps! I admire the work you are doing on these but I'm afraid I am NOT going to become a decimal coin variation collector!

[bhx7 222]

15 minutes ago, Paddy said:

OK - I have done that. I am not great at spotting small details but as far as I can work out:

1972 - One set, Type A, no frosting

1973 - One set, Type A, no frosting

1974 - Two sets, one type A no frosting, one type B with frosting, 1/2 P also frosted

1975 - Two sets, one Type A no frosting, one type B with frosting, 1/2 P also frosted

1976 - One set, Type A no frosting.

All the type As are in my older collection, which I have had for about 15 years and came from one auction together. The two sets with type B I picked up at a different auction about 5 years ago.

I hope that helps! I admire the work you are doing on these but I'm afraid I am NOT going to become a decimal coin variation collector!

Thanks Paddy that's a great start. 

I didn't think I would be as into the decimal side as I have found myself lately, although predecimal is still my main collection.

 

Edited February 9, 2018 by bhx7

[Unwilling Numismatist 505]

I didn't think Decimal would show so many differences given the manufacturing process advancements since like 1860!

I'll check mine tomorrow, but I don't keep any more than 1 set of anything these days and don't have them all. (Every little helps though right?)