Cameo or not ? Be wary !

[Peckris 579]

1 hour ago, secret santa said:

The latest email from Sovereign Rarities lists coins variously described as "Deep Cameo" and "Ultra Cameo". Are these places just trying to invent grades to get more money out of collectors ?

Indeed. We all no doubt remember the time honoured BUGem, which is clearly short for "Bugger 'em".  

[VickySilver 775]

Without seeing the items, I believe these to be the PCGS and NGC designations for enhanced cameo and describe the same presentation.

[Platinumskies1 7]

On 13/11/2017 at 8:23 PM, VickySilver said:

The general production of proofs to my understanding is for there to be special care in die production, whatever that means - presumably that means the choice of die , the engraving of the design. Then the die is "pickled" in a strong acid giving an overall frosted appearance to the die.

The die is then polished; the high points/surfaces will be the field, the lower points on the die are the devices and lettering, mottos, etc. which will remain frosted. As the die is used to strike successive planchets, there is die wear and eventual loss of frosting even of the devices. This then results in the loss of cameo frosting unless the die is reprepped. Presumably the first struck coins have the most cameo frosting which is then lost. This is also the reason that different lighting can make a particular specimen to appear to retain more frosting or cameo to the devices, etc.

I thought the devices of the die and soon to be coin where sandblasted to get the cameo effect 

[VickySilver 775]

The acid is over the whole die and then the high points/field polished leaving a bit of cameo to the recessed die spaces.

So called matte coins are stuck as per "usual" VIP and then sandblasted. I have a couple of coins with sandblasting medium still adhering.

[secret santa 2,013]

Just received an email from Sovereign Rarities with their latest offerings which contain items described as "Ultra Cameo" and "Deep Cameo". This is getting ridiculous.

They seem to inventing dozens of new grades at the top end. Any excuse to charge a bit more......

[PWA 1967 1,841]

Is it them saying it or are they just listing the grading companies attribution ?.

Thousands are being graded every week  ,so dealers will use this to there advantage and describe what it says on the label.

The problem can worsen as dealers also start to use as a grade description on raw coins IMO.

 

Edited April 13, 2018 by PWA 1967

[secret santa 2,013]

It's the grading companies - they're the ones I'm blaming.

[PWA 1967 1,841]

Yes i agree they started it and obviously some collectors want the label ,so more and more will start to show here in the UK.

Edited April 13, 2018 by PWA 1967

[Rob 3,002]

The only realistic way of differentiating the differing degrees of cameo and making an objective decision on that would be to measure the reflectivity of the various parts of the coin's face. So if reflected light from the field is measured and thus arbitrarily set to 100% reflectivity, then you could measure the amount of light reflecting from the bust and once it reduces to below a predetermined percentage of light reflected, they could justifiably say this was Cameo. Halve the figure again and it would become say deep cameo, halve it again and you have ultra cameo (I'm assuming Ultra is the deepest possible which may be an irrational assumption as they could easily concoct another label). Although it would provide a standard for the attribution, somehow, I can't see the TPGs setting up a rig which would measure this.

Edited April 13, 2018 by Rob

[rpeddie 119]

" CAM and DCAM refer specifically to the degree of contrast between the frosted design and the reflectivity of the proof fields. Proof coins that have both reverse and obverse designs that are highly frosted and contrast strongly with highly reflective fields are described as DCAM. Where the proof fields are highly reflective but the design is not frosted or frosted on only one side of the coin, PCGS assigns a CAM designation to the coin "

[Peckris 579]

27 minutes ago, rpeddie said:

" CAM and DCAM refer specifically to the degree of contrast between the frosted design and the reflectivity of the proof fields. Proof coins that have both reverse and obverse designs that are highly frosted and contrast strongly with highly reflective fields are described as DCAM. Where the proof fields are highly reflective but the design is not frosted or frosted on only one side of the coin, PCGS assigns a CAM designation to the coin "

That's ludicrous. If there is no frosting, then the term "cameo" cannot apply without rendering the English language meaningless. I'm not sure what PCGS think they're up to.

[rpeddie 119]

9 minutes ago, Peckris said:

That's ludicrous. If there is no frosting, then the term "cameo" cannot apply without rendering the English language meaningless. I'm not sure what PCGS think they're up to.

my interpretation of it is:

 if only 1 side frosted=CAM

if both sides frosted+contrast=DCAM

Both of these imply frosting on either side, this way just breaks it down as to whether one or both sides are frosted, i think the CAM designation is more important for coins that were produced before the 60's? 

[Peckris 579]

Frosted on one side I can understand. But no frosting at all? That's not a cameo.

[rpeddie 119]

46 minutes ago, rpeddie said:

Where the proof fields are highly reflective but the design is not frosted or frosted on only one side of the coin, PCGS assigns a CAM designation to the coin "

Ahh I see what you mean sorry got a bit lost, yea i agree 100% with you there. 

[secret santa 2,013]

So what's Ultra Cameo ?

[terrysoldpennies 691]

This is how the Americans grade them.

[secret santa 2,013]

So, I ask again, what's Ultra Cameo ?

[Peckris 579]

2 hours ago, terrysoldpennies said:

This is how the Americans grade them.

That last one in the CAMEO list appears to be NO CAMEO.

[Rob 3,002]

15 minutes ago, Peckris said:

That last one in the CAMEO list appears to be NO CAMEO.

Yes, but a label is worth a thousand opinions, ker-ching

[PWA 1967 1,841]

When this was first brought up i asked a couple of dealers as weather there was such a thing as Cameo BRONZE PENNIES..

They both replied in there own way.

"i dont think so ,some are nicer proofs than others and i just think is was something started by American grading companies"

"Is there FU$%"

I havent bothered looking at pictures of them since 

[Rob 3,002]

We all accept there are nicer coins than others, just be happy if you like what you have. 

As for bronze pennies, the Adams proof 1961 would have passed the audition without question, and attached below are two halfpennies, 1957 on the left, 1954 on the right. Only scans, but clearly one is and one isn't.

[Rob 3,002]

The basic problem is the TPGs have tapped into peoples' egos and turned collecting into a peeing competition by providing the registry sets for people to complete and adding their own micro grading suffixes to produce more competition amongst members. However, they can do what they like, because if you don't sign up to the nanny state concept with everything taken care of for you, like being told it's a nice or better coin or not, then it doesn't affect you.

[PWA 1967 1,841]

So are you saying there is Cameo Rob as i would probably expect early strikes or VIP to look much better ?.

This is a term being used on everything from what i can see even common years.

Sorry i had to answer the door in between my post and you had already really answered the question 

Edited April 14, 2018 by PWA 1967

[Rob 3,002]

Yes, going by the typical grading seen with the TPGs there are both cameo and non-cameo proofs. I have examples of both in the collection.

What term is being used on everything? Cameo, or VIP?

My view on cameo/deep/ultra etc is listed above, my view on VIP was made on several occasions recently, which I can't be a***d to find and link.

[PWA 1967 1,841]

Not having a clue how did they describe a proof before 2003.......I assume just proof.

This Cameo description is being used on coins from 1937 proof sets as an example of which there are plenty to choose from.

I only used VIP as ones that should appear nice and like early strikes have more eye appeal.