What is white base metal?

[newheart 23]

There is a token/medallion for sale described as being made from " white base metal". What does that mean? Lead? Pewter? Thanks!

[Rob 2,996]

Tin alloy. Usually with lead. The Moore pattern pennies of 1860 were listed by Peck as being struck in antimony, but an analysis of the metal by EDX gave a tin to lead ratio of approximately 2:1. That would pass as white metal.

[zookeeperz 470]

14 minutes ago, newheart said:

There is a token/medallion for sale described as being made from " white base metal". What does that mean? Lead? Pewter? Thanks!

Base metal is simply put, any metal other than a precious or noble metal, as copper, lead, zinc, or tin.  usually the base metal white metal for plated items probably copper-nickel. Sometimes the descriptions can vary. but as this case says base metal it infers not silver,white gold or platinum. Some auctions list items as white metal which can be precious metals without hallmarks but they usually counter with that very description but not always

 

[newheart 23]

Just read about Potin. Is "white base metal" a term used to describe an indeterminate alloy of different metals?

[Rob 2,996]

In token/medal terms, you can usually take tin to be the major component. A quick check of the weight should be enough to gauge whether tin is indicated.

[zookeeperz 470]

1 minute ago, newheart said:

Just read about Potin. Is "white base metal" a term used to describe an indeterminate alloy of different metals?

Polite way of saying its a fake lol. especially if you know something was only ever struck in one metal type I.E Silver  . But if an auctioneer were to call it such he would have less chance of selling it . Been on the other end of that white metal description for a russian rouble . No mention of base metal. £350 arrived and it was magnetic. Did the auctioneer know this? You bet your life he did and this was from an online auctioneers through salerooms. With an est of £40-£60 . He put the price to tempt bids. refused to refund the money. never again . lol

[newheart 23]

27 minutes ago, zookeeperz said:

Polite way of saying its a fake lol. especially if you know something was only ever struck in one metal type I.E Silver  . But if an auctioneer were to call it such he would have less chance of selling it . Been on the other end of that white metal description for a russian rouble . No mention of base metal. £350 arrived and it was magnetic. Did the auctioneer know this? You bet your life he did and this was from an online auctioneers through salerooms. With an est of £40-£60 . He put the price to tempt bids. refused to refund the money. never again . lol

Wow! I am glad I asked. I was very tempted by this (I have an interest in the period): http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=332410666481

So its a modern copy? Should this be reported?

[zookeeperz 470]

20 minutes ago, newheart said:

Wow! I am glad I asked. I was very tempted by this (I have an interest in the period): http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=332410666481

So its a modern copy? Should this be reported?

No not necessarily Medals can be struck in many metals and many are from lead,pewter,gun metal,silver,bronze,copper,gold. Just about anything. Seller has high reputation(not that that says much these days). I would research a little and find  what these were struck in. The description is non deceptive as in the seller isn't calling it something it isn't. Best thing you have done is ask the question I am sure one of the experts will point you in the right direction. That's above my pay grade

 

[Rob 2,996]

2 hours ago, zookeeperz said:

Polite way of saying its a fake lol. especially if you know something was only ever struck in one metal type I.E Silver  . But if an auctioneer were to call it such he would have less chance of selling it . Been on the other end of that white metal description for a russian rouble . No mention of base metal. £350 arrived and it was magnetic. Did the auctioneer know this? You bet your life he did and this was from an online auctioneers through salerooms. With an est of £40-£60 . He put the price to tempt bids. refused to refund the money. never again . lol

I would disagree. There is probably as much undocumented information as there is documented, so you can assume nothing. The vast majority of material in a numismatic sense relies on mint reports, pyx trials, the odd piece of documentary evidence from other sources and one hell of a lot of assumption on the part of auction houses, collectors and dealers. The last bit is where the problems arise.

Fourteen years ago at Spink in July 2003, I bought a few of the Weyl pattern pennies at the Adams sale. Peck listed this group as nos P2137 - 2204. Specifically, I aimed for the aluminium examples because this was a precious metal until it became commercially available in 1883-4. Not paying too much attention to the description other than the metal type, I bought them. When I weighed them it quickly dawned that they were roughly 3x too heavy for aluminium ( I hadn't paid attention to the weight given in the sale catalogue) - so what to do? The answer was obviously to resolve the issue. i.e why was it too heavy; what was the metal type, as it clearly didn't match anything listed in Peck, and what else have I missed?

So over the next two or three years, I bought a few more pieces from the Nicholson, Cooke and Wayne collections and at the same time, listed all I could find in past sales or price lists. Like Peck I found tracing examples difficult, but over time felt confident enough to arrive at a list of approximately 105 known examples of the series, most of which were unique. That extended the list of variants by more than two dozen, many of these were in a hitherto unrecorded material. The aluminium description had been taken verbatim from the Glendining sale on 15th Dec 1993, where the vendor had presumably thought - too light for silver, so the only other alternative looking like that is aluminium. Aluminium it is then! I published the results in the 2011 BNJ.

Proof if you want it, that the auctioneers aren't trying to dupe, I think they simply don't know when it comes to esoteric material, because they don't have material analysis equipment to hand. Nobody apart from museums or nerds like me and others on this forum is going to take the time to get the metal analysed and prove one way or the other what the attribution should be.

Same again in the Adams halfcrown sale where I bought the RM trial halfcrown struck from ship halfpenny dies. It was listed as Cu-Ni, but is magnetic. It transpires that it is about 87% iron with the remainder mostly chromium with a trace of manganese. Again, a case of total reliance on what has been said before without any corroborative evidence. You have to question anything and everything unless proven, because nobody has all the answers.

 

Edited October 22, 2017 by Rob

[zookeeperz 470]

33 minutes ago, Rob said:

I would disagree. There is probably as much undocumented information as there is documented, so you can assume nothing. The vast majority of material in a numismatic sense relies on mint reports, pyx trials, the odd piece of documentary evidence from other sources and one hell of a lot of assumption on the part of auction houses, collectors and dealers. The last bit is where the problems arise.

Fourteen years ago at Spink in July 2003, I bought a few of the Weyl pattern pennies at the Adams sale. Peck listed this group as nos P2137 - 2204. Specifically, I aimed for the aluminium examples because this was a precious metal until it became commercially available in 1883-4. Not paying too much attention to the description other than the metal type, I bought them. When I weighed them it quickly dawned that they were roughly 3x too heavy for aluminium ( I hadn't paid attention to the weight given in the sale catalogue) - so what to do? The answer was obviously to resolve the issue. i.e why was it too heavy; what was the metal type, as it clearly didn't match anything listed in Peck, and what else have I missed?

So over the next two or three years, I bought a few more pieces from the Nicholson, Cooke and Wayne collections and at the same time, listed all I could find in past sales or price lists. Like Peck I found tracing examples difficult, but over time felt confident enough to arrive at a list of approximately 105 known examples of the series, most of which were unique. That extended the list of variants by more than two dozen, many of these were in a hitherto unrecorded material. The aluminium description had been taken verbatim from the Glendining sale on 15th Dec 1993, where the vendor had presumably thought - too light for silver, so the only other alternative looking like that is aluminium. Aluminium it is then! I published the results in the 2011 BNJ.

Proof if you want it, that the auctioneers aren't trying to dupe, I think they simply don't know when it comes to esoteric material, because they don't have material analysis equipment to hand. Nobody apart from museums or nerds like me and others on this forum is going to take the time to get the metal analysed and prove one way or the other what the attribution should be.

Same again in the Adams halfcrown sale where I bought the RM trial halfcrown struck from ship halfpenny dies. It was listed as Cu-Ni, but is magnetic. It transpires that it is about 87% iron with the remainder mostly chromium with a trace of manganese. Again, a case of total reliance on what has been said before without any corroborative evidence. You have to question anything and everything unless proven, because nobody has all the answers.

 

Which was my initial take on him calling it white metal. which was and has been used in many auctions not so much for coins but items of old silver without hallmarks or white gold etc . Termed white metal as opposed to base metal. But Again if I had seen the coin at the auction I never would of bid for it. As soon as i opened the package I saw straight away it was a jeckle. Auctioneers if they are going to go down this road of online sales then they must  make it as transparent as they do for their land based auctions. My only safeguard is the auction house supplying me with a decent set of pictures rather like heritage does and a clear description of the coin or coins. At the moment catalogues are far too stacked with far away images and usually just one side.

They cannot use the argument they don't have time to take pics for all of them because if they do not have the time they have no business selling them. After all they for the most part are our eyes and ears in online auctions. What was the most annoying aspect was his answers Rob. "I never said it was authentic I merely stated it was white metal. " Which clearly stated he knew full well it wasn't.  Again I bought a lot unseen purely by the description of the auctioneer "Ex collection lot of Victorian pennies very useful lot " £100-£200

Box arrives with about 50 victorian pennies none graded higher than fair no key dates no varieties. £300 for a £10 box of toot. Unless someone had taken all the good coins out before posting them as I was an absentee bidder and there was no picture associated with the sale.

London coin auctions consigned my coins to them twice. Recommended not to put a reserve on them . There was 6 years worth of collecting in there Irish coins including 2 mules . unlisted coins and over dates. 87kg yes I know a bit of a hoarder lol . Nothing was mentioned in the catalogue apart from mainly base metal types some irish and 20 1912-H pennies varies grades to EF. No silver mentioned nor the silver crowns. There was easily £6000 without attributing the unlisted coins. I didn't even get scrap value back. 

Excuse was "sometimes niche buyers are looking for certain items and don't like large lots" BS then split the bloody lots up. it only went as one lot on their recommendation 2nd time  was exactly the same . I should of learned from the first time but I used to be far more trusting. I have my own idea as to why but that is only speculation on my part. But for the most part I don't trust any of them. To them it is one item in a sale. To me or any vendor it is a lifes work and should be treated as such and not sold short with most of the best items left out of descriptions.

 

Edited October 22, 2017 by zookeeperz
spelling demon entered me :)

[bagerap 706]

8 hours ago, newheart said:

Wow! I am glad I asked. I was very tempted by this (I have an interest in the period): http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=332410666481

So its a modern copy? Should this be reported?

The Dassier medals were/are frequently copied and reissued. My favorite were by Sir Edward Thomason, in lead. I have one somewhere and will post it when found.

Good basic reference:

http://www.historicalartmedals.com/MEDAL%20WEB%20ENTRIES/BIOSKETCHES%20AND%20OTHER%20TEXT/SWITZERLAND/kings_and_queens_of_england.htm