Jump to content
British Coin Forum - Predecimal.com

50 Years of RotographicCoinpublications.com A Rotographic Imprint. Price guide reference book publishers since 1959. Lots of books on coins, banknotes and medals. Please visit and like Coin Publications on Facebook for offers and updates.

Coin Publications on Facebook

   Rotographic    

The current range of books. Click the image above to see them on Amazon (printed and Kindle format). More info on coinpublications.com

predecimal.comPredecimal.com. One of the most popular websites on British pre-decimal coins, with hundreds of coins for sale, advice for beginners and interesting information.

Sign in to follow this  
Rob

1795 Pattern Halfpenny images required

Recommended Posts

I'm looking for any quality images people might have of Peck type R42, i.e. P1052-1056. Any metal will do, but preferably the commonest type which are the bronzed finish. I'm satisfied that the earliest types are the gilt P1052 and brass P1055. Less certain is what subsequently happened to the obverse die as I have 2 bronzed examples with traces of curls below the truncation and one without where this area is devoid of traces of curls. The basic type is as pictured.

c1449-P1052 1795 halfpenny.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The area I'm interested in is as highlighted below. If anyone has an aluminium example, I assume it would be very late given the metal was only commercially available from the 1880s. I don't have a copper example either :(

All pictures gratefully received. TIA.

Copy of img243.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Things have moved on. Also need images of R41 halfpennies - either P1050 or P1051.

When the logic fails, it's the human bit that's wrong. I've got a new derivative die, so all R42s are not equal :)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mark Rasmussen has a picture of a 1051 on his site under the Archive section.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, PWA 1967 said:

Mark Rasmussen has a picture of a 1051 on his site under the Archive section.

Thanks Pete. That's this one, which I bought in 2008.

c1491-P1051 1795 halfpenny.jpg

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, PWA 1967 said:

Small world :)

 

Certainly is in the world of pattern halfpennies

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good news. 10+ years after I posed the question regarding the filled curls, I have now resolved the conundrum having committed myself to giving a talk about the chronology of the subject matter to the South Manchester - which was done a fortnight ago. It also conveniently helped to sort out the order of the strikings in various metals.

First of all, talking only about Kuchler's pattern halfpennies and the restrikes with at least one 1795 die, the original early Soho strikings KH1 & 2 were the first issue as they are rust free. According to Peck, KH3 (1797/1795) is also rust free as it is the same reverse die as KH2 and therefore likely to be struck in 1797 (I don't have an example). The two late Soho strikings on account of rust spots, KH4 & KH5, are reversed in chronological terms as both the KH2 & KH5 have clean fields, whereas the KH4 die has developed a rust spot under the first A of BRITANNIA. This is supported by the degree to which the reverse die has been polished. Every time the die is polished you may possibly see some reduction in relief or a thinning of a piece of detail. This enables one to sort out the order in which the various types were made.P1042 finger.jpgP1046 finger.jpgP- KH4 finger.jpg

The relief of the pointing finger and hand provide the evidence for placing KH5 before KH4. The copper KH2, P1042 has the fattest finger, whereas the other two are somewhat thinned. The KH5, P1046 bent finger is however in higher relief compared to the KH4, P-. So the KH4 must post-date the other two.

Moving to the coin which was responsible for the question (see above), the difficulty was in solving whether the curls were filled in from the R41 die (see above), or not, and where the coins fitted in the order.  Using the amount of field due to polishing seen within the tie knot area on obverse dies of various R42s, an order of Gilt (P1052), Brass (P1055) followed by the Bronzed (P1053), of which 3 examples were used.

P- KH4 tie.jpg

P1052 tie.jpgP1053m tie.jpg

Somewhat surprisingly, the R40 (P1051) obverse die is not the same as that used for the Soho strikings, and is in fact a completely different die. This can be established by the presence on both early Soho dies and the latest restrikes, a series of polishing lines on the cheek and neck and a flaw which are consistent in their relative positions on all the KH & R42 dies, but not the R41 obverse which is heavily rusted. It would be virtually impossible to clear the rust off a KH die without changing the detail, and in any case there is a hair curl which crosses the truncation at a different point on the two dies.

P- KH4  hair curl.jpg

P1052  hair curl.jpgP1051  hair curl.jpg

The R41 reverse has the rust spot seen on the KH4 in a more developed state, and the flaw under the T on the rim has now appeared. As Britannia's neck and associated curls is fully struck up on the R41 compared to the R42, this must be the earlier strike. 

A surprising find was that the earliest of the three bronzed examples was ex Boulton family collection, so it appears that Matthew Piers Watt Boulton was involved with Taylor from a relatively early point in time, and may well have been inspirational in producing different varieties. The bronzed R42 was clearly a staple output of Taylor's, as appendix 10d in Peck lists 50 of these in the consignment of 804 pieces recorded leaving Taylor's workshop on 29th June 1880.

The coin with the filled curls below the truncation post-dates the ex Boulton coin and shows a considerable amount of die polishing resulting in more exposed field. It also shows a filled curl resembling the profile of that on the P1051, but not the hair crossing the truncation.

R42 R41 detail.jpg

As the R41 (P1051) obverse is a different die to the R42, we can only speculate as to the reason for engraving this curl. My suspicions are that the R41 obverse die broke, and this was an attempt by Taylor to reconstruct the die in order to expand his product line, but for whatever reason decided to revert to the typical R42 design. The filled curls were subsequently obliterated by further die polishing.

As the recut S shaped curl is narrower on the filled curl coin than those struck prior to this, I believe we have a case for making this an R42A

A further piece of the jigsaw fell into place with my R44 silver 1790 pattern (the heavily toned piece) which uses the 1795 obverse die. Based on the thinning seen in the tie knot area, it can be placed between the Brass P1055, and the ex Boulton 1053. It is however quite rusty suggesting the die had a period out of use following the gilt & brass strikings.

Coupled with other evidence such as the 1807 proof halfpenny, the esoteric pieces such as gold, silver and gilt were struck early on, with the bronzed pieces coming out when production was in full swing.

I know it isn't a penny, but thoughts, opinions, criticism, contributions etc. please.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Rob

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow. I don't know if the projected Peck rewrite ever came to anything (Colin Cooke was working on the farthings), but you should definitely do the Soho halfpennies Rob!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rob,

This is an impressive piece of numismatic detective work! Congratulations!

Best Regards,

InforaPenny

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do have one of the 1797 patterns for the half penny however I think the die must have been rusty I am sure you already have this one but let me know.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

it would be nice to have a full rewrite there is so much more that could be done surely in this era contributions could be compiled collectively with one person guiding and editing the project, there must be enough combined knowledge around.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

could I ask you a very strange question as you seem to look under the microscope as much as I do....have you ever noticed a particular pattern subsurface across the face of the soho coins.  I noticed a few years back a set of repeating patterns and it has taken me three years to unravel what I think the pattern is i.e its elements.  I wont go any further because I shall end being called after DK Batty ...just that.  But I did first notice it in the soho mints coins and have speculated on the coining process that might lead to a repeated pattern but once again I will be called Batty 

I have a background in reading geophysics patterns and interpretation so my brain is used to searching for what might be considered noise as patterns....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, DrLarry said:

I do have one of the 1797 patterns for the half penny however I think the die must have been rusty I am sure you already have this one but let me know.  

That narrows it down to a few dozen possibilities. You will have to post a picture to get an idea what it is. If a Peck 1161, then these were one of the first restrikes made before the dies had any remedial work done with the entire surface of both dies covered in rust. Is it as rusty as the attached? The bronzing was a bit hit and miss too.

img229.jpg

img230.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, DrLarry said:

it would be nice to have a full rewrite there is so much more that could be done surely in this era contributions could be compiled collectively with one person guiding and editing the project, there must be enough combined knowledge around.

 

The trouble is there isn't a sufficient number of people to do this. Bronze pennies aside, there are never more than one or two that take a serious interest in other specific topics.

As for the surfaces, I was looking for die polishing lines. As these are random, any identical lines found on a different die provide the link you are seeking.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

no it seems to have some kind of euclidean geometric arrangement I first started noticing it in silver from the late 17thC the format seems simpler but it is still a complex weave pattern there seem to be three major pictogram elements that fold in on each other.  They also have a form of rotational symmetry so that the lines and dots that make them up appear random at first but then gradually I seem to have made sense of them.  I know its a little bonkers I suppose the simplest way is to explain it a little like a watermark in a note which is somehow imposed on the metal I tried some experiments with metal rolling a design which had some success but it seems a very complicated way to stop counterfeiting.  Perhaps I have just looked at too many coin surfaces under the microscope for the last three years.   

well whatever they are they have taught me how to look and I have managed to learn the skill of oil painting from them so I cannot complain even if its 3 years down a dead end, I have learnt a lot about minting in the process and metallurgy. I love microscopy work so it has been a pleasure.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

well I would happily take on a big chunk of the work I cannot think of a nicer way to making a contribution and I have thousands of hours to put in the pot. I think sometime I need some direction with these things as much as photos are great I learnt many years ago how interpretation of images is the learning process that leads to better understanding.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not convinced it is entirely feasible as a project as there are many unique or nearly so die pairs which reside in museums, so material is always a problem. Unfortunately I only have limited resources here now as I thinned out the patterns over the past decade to leave myself with a single example where possible of each Peck type - KH1, KH2 etc, and there is a large number of gaps which may or may not be possible to fill. The only reason I kept the 5 R42s was because of the glaring inconsistencies when comparing the coins with the references.

Peck's work is a very good attempt at establishing the chronology, but does have a few things I can't reconcile. Unfortunately his collection which provided much material for the book now resides in Birmingham museum, and I don't live in Birmingham.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yes I am the same if I were in a place of access it would be much simpler.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×