Halfcrown and Penny LCA unsolds

[argentumandcoins 70]

Apologies to those members who contacted requesting a list of unsold lots from the LCA June sale.

I decided that if I had to re-write the list I may as well write a catalogue, so that's what I have done. All of the unsolds have been individually catalogued and photographed for sale by auction. As some of you know I work freelance for Northern salerooms and I have submitted the lots for sale at PFK in Penrith. The coins will be sold during and antique sale and run to about 220 lots. The sale date is 09/08/17 and live bidding is available online via the saleroom.com or easyliveauction.com. There will be obv and rev pics for each coin and a printed catalogue will be available from the saleroom on request. 

In addition to the coins I also have 3 Peter Nichols cabinets available. They are a Coronet (his largest which retails at £954 + £55 delivery) and 2 x Standard Crozier (retailing at £678 + £31 delivery). These are not listed for sale yet so please PM if interested.

[secret santa 2,013]

Great news - any chance of a link to the catalogue ?

[DaveG38 385]

Curious link when you click on www.argentumandcoins.co.uk

[argentumandcoins 70]

3 hours ago, secret santa said:

Great news - any chance of a link to the catalogue ?

I'll post it once online Richard.

[argentumandcoins 70]

2 hours ago, DaveG38 said:

Curious link when you click on www.argentumandcoins.co.uk

I jacked the website Dave as trade was slower than a Newcastle United central defender. I may revive it one day, maybe, perhaps......

[DaveG38 385]

23 minutes ago, argentumandcoins said:

I jacked the website Dave as trade was slower than a Newcastle United central defender. I may revive it one day, maybe, perhaps......

Ah, I see. It wasn't what I expected when I clicked the link.

[1949threepence 3,366]

Great news & thanks John. Never had an LCA catalogue, so no clear idea of what was left unsold afterwards (apart from the F30 I bought post auction)  

[Rob 2,996]

12 hours ago, argentumandcoins said:

I jacked the website Dave as trade was slower than a Newcastle United central defender. I may revive it one day, maybe, perhaps......

Which reflects what I was saying on the York Fair thread. All the dealers I spoke to have noticed it has been quiet for a few months, with some selling nothing off their sites for a week or more. If you contrast that with the auction results where people are prepared to buy at virtually any cost, it paints a contradictory picture.

Comments would be good from people on the other side of the fence, as I am having difficulty understanding what is going on - and I'm not alone.

[secret santa 2,013]

Can only comment as a penny collector, but dealers' sites seldom list the detailed variety of pennies (where dates exist with multiple varieties) whereas auction sites generally are very good at describing the variety. Maybe dealers tend to be generalists and not familiar with the really esoteric varieties that specialist collectors are seeking ? I've no real idea what the general collecting scene is like at the moment. I do know that a lot of good penny collections have come to market over the last 10 years and I don't know whether other collectors are taking their place.

[PWA 1967 1,840]

Some dealers have had very little new stock this year so you end up just looking at the same coins every month.

The ones who have sold nothing off there site maybe due to everyone already looking at it ,when its the same everyweek.

Maybe the ones selling nothing are not buying anything ?.

I appreciate coins are not just something you can get from a wharehouse but some sites very rarely add much.

Its like the dealers who carry the same stock to shows looking for a new collector the regulars start to drift away i would think.

If like me you dont go to shows it means you spend more time looking at auctions.

Edited July 25, 2017 by PWA 1967

[craigy 362]

a l;otof coins have become overpriced in my humble opinion, where others have hardly any resale value 

[Peter 615]

Maybe if dealers lists slightly raised their pricing and offered their coins with "make me an offer" you can drag a few more buyers in.I personally don't feel happy offering a bid on dealers lists for coins under say £25.Face to face at coin fairs I have no problem especially if I'm buying a few and have lovely crisp notes in my palm.

[Rob 2,996]

12 minutes ago, secret santa said:

Can only comment as a penny collector, but dealers' sites seldom list the detailed variety of pennies (where dates exist with multiple varieties) whereas auction sites generally are very good at describing the variety. Maybe dealers tend to be generalists and not familiar with the really esoteric varieties that specialist collectors are seeking ? I've no real idea what the general collecting scene is like at the moment. I do know that a lot of good penny collections have come to market over the last 10 years and I don't know whether other collectors are taking their place.

That's possible, but the world is larger than just pennies. The downturn seems to be across the board. Clearly eBay has taken its toll of dealers because mint state pieces aside, everyone expects to pick up lesser pieces for 99p with free postage, which in turn must be reflected in reduced sales off websites. In terms of listing specific varieties, that is always going to be the preserve of the specialist collector, who is likely to be the only person willing to pay a large premium. Specialists have always had to do their own legwork as you can't rely on the description of either dealer or auction house when it comes to small variations. Things are esoteric for a reason - i.e. not many people are interested.

14 minutes ago, craigy said:

a l;otof coins have become overpriced in my humble opinion, where others have hardly any resale value 

Any pointers where you think this is the case? Decimals are obvious, but they tend to be the preserve of ebay bidders and facebook, not websites where few dealers carry decimals, or fairs which are similarly poorly supplied. It is quite clear the middle grade market has collapsed to some extent. The market has always had far more material than collectors to absorb it, so this is not the reason for the downturn.

 

25 minutes ago, PWA 1967 said:

Some dealers have had very little new stock this year so you end up just looking at the same coins every month.

The ones who have sold nothing off there site maybe due to everyone already looking at it ,when its the same everyweek.

Maybe the ones selling nothing are not buying anything ?

At the risk of repeating myself, it is clear there is little quality material to buy at the moment and this is reflected in dealers' stock. It is not worth paying inflated prices for indifferent material when there is nobody to sell it on to.

[PWA 1967 1,840]

Maybe the quality material you mention Rob is going into auctions rather than being offered to dealers.

[DaveG38 385]

So, to raise the obvious quetion. Who IS buying at auction at inflated prices? The individual coins keep being sold as do the bulk lots. Is this new dealers investing in their stock? For myself, not a dealer as such, I can only say that I buy individual coins I want at auction, or I buy a bulk lot of high grade where I can upgrade my own coins and then sell all the spares on, usually on ebay. This generally allows me to upgrade at virtually no cost, since the receipts from the spares more or less cover the cost of the lots. Its not an exact science but broadly works.

[Rob 2,996]

34 minutes ago, PWA 1967 said:

Maybe the quality material you mention Rob is going into auctions rather than being offered to dealers.

I'm not sure there is that much quality going into auctions either. I can make a list for every sale of reasonable size that starts off with a page or two of potentials, but by the time you have weeded out the overgraded or those with unmentioned faults, or those that simply don't cut it aesthetically even when the grade is right, the list is usually down to quite literally a few pieces - if you are lucky.

I think there are buyers in today's auctions who are genuinely unaware of the better pieces that might become available in the future, but that has probably always been the case.

The number of auctions is astronomical, so this must invariably dilute the quality of offerings.

The near 25% typical buyer's premium means that to buy at auction for selling on, a dealer must mark up things by at least 50% of the hammer price to have a viable business. You can't do it, because everybody sees the increase over purchase price and cries foul - see elsewhere on the forum for examples. This can only result in fewer dealers long term, and that will not help the hobby.

Or maybe our little hobby is not as important as some would believe, with a narrow customer base to match.

[PWA 1967 1,840]

Yes it did make me think last year in The Copthorne auction with regards a small customer base.

A lot were bought just by a few forum members and made me think that there were not as many penny collectors as i thought.

[TomGoodheart 373]

Personally, I'm just not seeing the coins I want, in the grades I want Rob.  I rather assumed that anyone with nicer pieces was either holding on to them, or perhaps selling privately.  More likely the former. 

Maybe we need another collection or two coming to the market, however when I consider Bob L's coins, or even Alan Morris', the proportion of coins I'd really like to own as opposed to the overall number, was still small.  I guess that's the problem with a 'maturer' collection .. I'm on the hunt for either nicer coins or the scarcer ones.  However whereas in the past it was finances (or lack or willingness to spend the necessary) that limited acquisitions, now it's simple lack of material.

And of course, that fuels the problem.  Until I can upgrade what I have, I don't wish to part with any of my coins.  In fact, if possible and unlike previously, I would prefer to add further to the collection without necessarily disposing of existing coins.  But that means I have little to sell, ... assuming there are even specialist collectors in my field any more to buy what I have to offer.. 

 

[1949threepence 3,366]

On 7/25/2017 at 9:59 AM, secret santa said:

Can only comment as a penny collector, but dealers' sites seldom list the detailed variety of pennies (where dates exist with multiple varieties) whereas auction sites generally are very good at describing the variety. Maybe dealers tend to be generalists and not familiar with the really esoteric varieties that specialist collectors are seeking ? I've no real idea what the general collecting scene is like at the moment. I do know that a lot of good penny collections have come to market over the last 10 years and I don't know whether other collectors are taking their place.

That's actually very true. Obtaining the rare varieties is a long slow process, and obviously with increased rarity comes an inevitable compromise on quality, as the high grades just aren't available, even assuming you had the cash to pay for them.

With that said, I've noticed one phenomenon which isn't entirely clear to me, and that is even with the rarest coins, such as those on your rarest pennies website, Richard, there always seem to be one or two in each variety, which have somehow survived the over 100 years time span, in superb condition. Maybe the F27, F90 & F103, excepted. With less than 20, that's somewhat surprising. Does it indicate that the rarity in variety was spotted, by someone, long before Freeman spotted them? 

ETA: Although you'd have thought the F90 would have been spotted as a rarity, right off the block, as it's not exactly difficult to miss at first glance.  

   

 

Edited July 26, 2017 by 1949threepence

[1949threepence 3,366]

On 7/25/2017 at 0:17 PM, PWA 1967 said:

Yes it did make me think last year in The Copthorne auction with regards a small customer base.

A lot were bought just by a few forum members and made me think that there were not as many penny collectors as i thought.

Or maybe - for whatever reason - the Copthorne collection on Colin Cooke's website, just didn't attract the kind of international interest it would have done at dnw, Spink or LCA.

I think I got a bargain with a near BU F14 at just £1500 plus juice. Only two bidders for that coin.  

 

[jaggy 528]

On 7/25/2017 at 1:36 AM, Rob said:

Which reflects what I was saying on the York Fair thread. All the dealers I spoke to have noticed it has been quiet for a few months, with some selling nothing off their sites for a week or more. If you contrast that with the auction results where people are prepared to buy at virtually any cost, it paints a contradictory picture.

Comments would be good from people on the other side of the fence, as I am having difficulty understanding what is going on - and I'm not alone.

In the past, I was someone who bought primarily from auctions and almost never from dealers. That has changed and I now monitor several dealer sites, including yours. The advantage of a big auction over a dealer is that there is usually a lot of material on offer and, potentially, you can get coins at very good prices if there is not much competition. The disadvantage is that one is often wondering about the real condition of the coin and prices can go high if there is a bidding war. The advantage of a dealer is that the price is fixed and, if you really trust the dealer, that the coin will be what is described. 

For me, there are two problems in acquiring new coins. The first is that, as my collection has matured, there are fewer gaps to be filled. Even expanding my collecting to a couple of type sets, has not really changed that. The second is that there are fewer high quality coins available and they are commanding premium prices. Although I can pay those prices for the right coin, I cannot buy a lot of coins at those prices. 

As an aside, I probably need to sell some of my doubles in order to free up cash but I hate selling my coins. 

When it comes to dealers, I have three criteria. The first is that they have the coins and the quality I am looking for. The second is that they are easy and reliable to deal with. The third is that their prices have to be right.

For the first criteria, having a web site that is easy to search without having to wade through pages of coins that I am not interested in is helpful. Having quality photos and an accurate description of the coin is key.

For the second criteria, being able to pay online, being able to use my credit card without an add on fee and reasonable postage costs is important. Getting the coin in the mail quickly and emailing tracking information helps a lot. In the internet world, the competition is only a couple of clicks away so the dealer needs to make the buying experience as easy as possible. 

For the third criteria, having the right price does not mean being cheaper than in auction. If, for example, I see a dealer price at $500 and auction hammer prices (per the archives) have been floating around the $350-$400 region then that is not necessarily a deal breaker. A dealer can be a bit more expensive than an auction because 1) they have the coin and 2) there is no price risk; the price is what it is. But a dealer cannot be a lot more expensive. The differential cannot be such as to make waiting for an auction and taking the risk that the auction price is high a better option.

Incidentally, Rob, I do have my eye on one of your coins. Because of my recent travel schedule, I haven't pulled the trigger yet, but may do in a couple of weeks.

[secret santa 2,013]

The catalogue is now online. Link below.

https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/penrith-farmers-and-kidds-plc

 

[1949threepence 3,366]

1 hour ago, secret santa said:

The catalogue is now online. Link below.

https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/penrith-farmers-and-kidds-plc

 

Thanks Richard. Still some nice stuff left.

The "additional fees" are noted as:-

"Commission 24% including VAT/sales tax"

"VAT/sales tax on hammer 20%"

Not 100% clear what this means. I'm hoping it doesn't mean a 44% whammy on hammer price for the buyer. Although I assume it means just 24% for the buyer.

  

 

Edited July 31, 2017 by 1949threepence

[1949threepence 3,366]

Also looked on easy live auction.com and there is a gap in auctions between 8th and 10th August?

 

Edited July 31, 2017 by 1949threepence

[secret santa 2,013]

12 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Not 100% clear what this means. I'm hoping it doesn't mean a 44% whammy on hammer price for the buyer. Although I assume it means just 24% for the buyer

I think that's right. The estimates (plus commission) look a little high. I fear the seller could be disappointed although I hope not.