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PWA 1967

Pennies High grade.

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Yep, 76. The tall helmet plume gives it away.

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Yes Mike .

The i reverse is scarce and only on both F69 & F76.

i REV

Wide date with H below.

Sea does not cross linear circle

Taller straighter helmet with plume closer to rim.

These are the three i use and if they are right then is scarce 😊

The OBV will be either F69 OBV 6 or F76 OBV 7

OBV 7 is the old head.

Sure like other coins people use different indicators but the date is a good one as will show even if its a .....Washer 

If you cant see the date properly throw it in the bin.

Pete.

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I normally do an internet sweep for pennies 3-4 times a week when I have the time,

and the F76 is the one I start looking for.

The F69 is supposedly nearly as rare, but I've had five of those....

 

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37 minutes ago, blakeyboy said:

I normally do an internet sweep for pennies 3-4 times a week when I have the time,

and the F76 is the one I start looking for.

The F69 is supposedly nearly as rare, but I've had five of those....

 

I think Blake considering it was way before the internet Mr freeman did a fantastic job from the resources he had.

F69 R16...........51-100 Estimate.

F76 R17............16-50  Estimate.

I have a book that belonged to Mr freeman of which inserted there are numerous typed out details of estimates and prices that was done in the seventies.

An amazing insight researched by looking at thousands of loose pennies in hand of all grades.

Edited by PWA 1967
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On 10/15/2018 at 11:25 PM, secret santa said:

Thanks for the advice. Read the Home pages and you'll see the references to Freeman's and Gouby's rarity codes.

You're welcome :) (Apologiies my last post din't convey the message in the manner it was intended, and did come across as rude).

I was/am stating that

1874H K+h BP1874M 7+I F76 Heaton Mint R8

and

1874H F76 (Gouby K+h; Freeman 7+I) (R18)

convey a very different rarity, which seemed somewhat confusing.

Apologies once again if I caused offence which was not intened.

Kev

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Hi Kev  are you referring to Freeman v. Gouby where they used two different scales?

Freeman has the F76 as R17  and Gouby had it at R8 but upped it to R9 on his scale a few years ago, if I remember correctly...

 

"Freeman v. Gouby"  in a bout between two genuine heavyweights....

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Dont know if these are any use to anyone.

1939 BU CGS 82

1953 BU CGS 82.....Currency

1970       CGS 90

£33 for the three posted.

Also a 1939 on its own BU CGS 82 £20

Pete.

Edited by PWA 1967

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14 hours ago, Unwilling Numismatist said:

I was/am stating that

1874H K+h BP1874M 7+I F76 Heaton Mint R8

and

1874H F76 (Gouby K+h; Freeman 7+I) (R18)

convey a very different rarity, which seemed somewhat confusing.

And as I said above, the Home pages of each website explain the rarity codes used. The rare penny site uses Freeman's rarity codes and the pennyvarieties site uses Peck and Gouby codes. The fact that Gouby and Freeman both use a prefix of "R" can be confusing but the two sites are independent and do not cross refer or compare.

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18 hours ago, Unwilling Numismatist said:

You're welcome :) (Apologiies my last post din't convey the message in the manner it was intended, and did come across as rude).

I was/am stating that

1874H K+h BP1874M 7+I F76 Heaton Mint R8

and

1874H F76 (Gouby K+h; Freeman 7+I) (R18)

convey a very different rarity, which seemed somewhat confusing.

Apologies once again if I caused offence which was not intened.

Kev

Kev, 

You might find these images useful. They are the respective rarity scales used by Gouby and Freeman. First one is Gouby and second, Freeman. Apologies for quality, but book pages are a sod to get a decent pic of.

Incidentally, Freeman has the F76 as R17, not R18. Although I think in reality it probably is R18. 

 

 

 

gouby rarity scale.jpg

 

freeman 2.jpg

Edited by 1949threepence
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7 hours ago, PWA 1967 said:

Dont know if these are any use to anyone.

1939 BU CGS 82

1953 BU CGS 82.....Currency

1970       CGS 90

£33 for the three posted.

Also a 1939 on its own BU CGS 82 £20

Pete.

The group of three has gone 😊

Just the 1939 BU CGS 82 on its own left for £20 Posted.

1895 BU CGS 82 £87 posted.................PM me for pictures if interested

1951 BU CGS 82 currency £55 posted

Pete.

Edited by PWA 1967
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201 - 500 = 'Scarce'? That's absurd. (For currency coins minted in the millions).

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1 hour ago, Peckris 2 said:

201 - 500 = 'Scarce'? That's absurd. (For currency coins minted in the millions).

Could this not be a difference of perception? While coins are circulating the relative rarity applies to those that you can expect to find in your pocket. Once no longer legal tender, then the rarity goalposts move to reflect the reduced number of people with an interest in the coin. The number of actual collectors of said item then has to be weighed against the number of coins extant, which will diminish rapidly around the time of demonetisation.

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Here's a hypothesis that's indirectly related to what you're talking about.  I'm posting it here because, well, a tributary deserves a tributary of its own.   

There are five interrelated variables that affect the coin market: Awareness, availability, rarity, popularity and price.  Although the population of a particular variety is absolute, it's unknowable unless precise and accurate mintage figures are published and each of these specimens is accounted for.  The perceived rarity of a coin is subject to change and, therefore, a variable.  That said, there are degrees of probability of the order of magnitude of a coin's absolute population.  

Each of these five variables are truly interrelated in the sense that each influences all of the other four.  Two examples:

The availability of a coin is related to the quantity of a particular variety that's on the market at any one time and the frequency at which each specimen becomes available for sale.  The variety's availability is influenced by its awareness within the collecting community, its collector value (market corrections when its perceived value to investors or collectors changes and more or fewer are listed for sale), its rarity and its popularity.

The rarity of a coin is related to its absolute population and the portion of this figure to have been identified.  The variety's rarity is influenced by its awareness within the collecting community, its collector value, its popularity and its availability, each of which will encourage collectors to seek out specimens.  

I haven't thought this through thoroughly, but if I don't write it down somewhere I'll forget about it.  

Feedback?

 

Edited by Madness
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Mintages are definitely not the main determining factor in price, which for most things on this planet is supply and demand. A good example is the wreath crown where the vast majority of coins struck must still be extant, not having circulated to any large degree. In fact, these are likely to be the largest population of 20th century material surviving post-demonetisation where the numbers struck are close to the numbers extant. With no published die varieties to chase, it means the sales prices are quite clean and representative.

Using high grade examples, with the exception of the 1934 with a mintage of 932 which regularly sell in the 3500 - 5000 range, all the others typically sell for 4-800. The two next lowest mintages with just under 2.5x this are the 1932 & 1936 which sell in the upper end of the range, but the others mostly sell in the 4-500 bracket. Based on mintages, the 1934 is clearly overpriced, or else the others are underpriced.

Given the assumed correlation above between mintage vs extant,  I suppose this gives us an approximate figure for the numbers of people collecting this issue. Demand for the rarest year (by mintage) is clearly buoyant based on prices, yet the number of examples coming to market is disproportionately large relative to the other mintages. They are always available. This I believe is due to collectors putting off purchasing a 1934 until relatively later in their collecting life due to the higher cost, and as a result will be retained for a shorter period of time than is the case for the other years, leading to them being resold quicker. The collector's perception of rarity is derived from the published figures published and it is this which drives the price, because it certainly isn't availability. The next two rarest years are probably a better indicator of demand. In my opinion, you see relatively fewer of these, and they command a small premium to the rest. The 4056 mintage for 1931 therefore appears to fully satisfy demand leading me to the assumption that the number of collectors is somewhere in the low thousands.I could be wrong, but don't think it is too wide of the mark.

When it comes to varieties the waters are somewhat muddied, as they tend to only be collected by the broader population once they have been written down and referenced, and then only by a small minority of specialists. The majority of collectors will only ever want a type example. This leads to some stratospheric prices where only a handful are known, but the collector base is wide, but also leads to a rapidly reducing price subsequently once more examples become available due to the spread of knowledge and people actively seeking out the variety, e.g. the 1893/2 penny. That speaks volumes about attention to detail and the depth to which collectors actually study their coins, and raises the question of greed and avarice - but that's another discussion.

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9 hours ago, Madness said:

Here's a hypothesis that's indirectly related to what you're talking about.  I'm posting it here because, well, a tributary deserves a tributary of its own.   

There are five interrelated variables that affect the coin market: Awareness, availability, rarity, popularity and price.  Although the population of a particular variety is absolute, it's unknowable unless precise and accurate mintage figures are published and each of these specimens is accounted for.  The perceived rarity of a coin is subject to change and, therefore, a variable.  That said, there are degrees of probability of the order of magnitude of a coin's absolute population.  

Each of these five variables are truly interrelated in the sense that each influences all of the other four.  Two examples:

The availability of a coin is related to the quantity of a particular variety that's on the market at any one time and the frequency at which each specimen becomes available for sale.  The variety's availability is influenced by its awareness within the collecting community, its collector value (market corrections when its perceived value to investors or collectors changes and more or fewer are listed for sale), its rarity and its popularity.

The rarity of a coin is related to its absolute population and the portion of this figure to have been identified.  The variety's rarity is influenced by its awareness within the collecting community, its collector value, its popularity and its availability, each of which will encourage collectors to seek out specimens.  

I haven't thought this through thoroughly, but if I don't write it down somewhere I'll forget about it.  

Feedback?

 

Rarity can also be sub-divided into rarity by condition/grade. For example, a given coin can be relatively easy to access in grades up to say, VF, but disproportionately more difficult at EF+ and impossible in uncirculated with full lustre. Whereas others with roughly the same absolute population extant, will be easier to obtain in the very highest grades. 

Gouby does touch upon this scenario, but only briefly. A book which makes a much better fist of these rarity grade distinctions is "The standard catalogue of English milled coinage, silver, copper and bronze 1662 - 1972" , by the late Geoffrey M. Cope and P. Alan Rayner . From 1974, it unfortunately doesn't cover all varieties, but is well worth a read.       

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10 hours ago, Rob said:

Could this not be a difference of perception? While coins are circulating the relative rarity applies to those that you can expect to find in your pocket. Once no longer legal tender, then the rarity goalposts move to reflect the reduced number of people with an interest in the coin. The number of actual collectors of said item then has to be weighed against the number of coins extant, which will diminish rapidly around the time of demonetisation.

Possibly, but I still think that Scarce in relation to a population of 251 - 500 is rather ridiculous. It means that there is no way to differentiate the 1912H from the 1919KN penny, both of which would exceed those figures, in one case by 000,000, in the other by far less. It also means that the 1913 "mules" could not be described as scarce, nor 1864 or 1865/3 pennies and any number of other examples. 

Your example of wreath crowns is perhaps the exception: 932 (1934) as a proportion of all wreath crowns minted excluding 1927, is not so small, and as you say this was an issue where nearly all original strikes still exist and come up regularly for sale.

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3 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

Gouby does touch upon this scenario, but only briefly. A book which makes a much better fist of these rarity grade distinctions is "The standard catalogue of English milled coinage, silver, copper and bronze 1662 - 1972" , by the late Geoffrey M. Cope and P. Alan Rayner . From 1974, it unfortunately doesn't cover all varieties, but is well worth a read.       

Agreed - though Cope & Rayner has one or two real bloopers; for example they say that a 1923 halfcrown in top grade is harder than the 1925!

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13 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

Agreed - though Cope & Rayner has one or two real bloopers; for example they say that a 1923 halfcrown in top grade is harder than the 1925!

Yes.

They do add a rider after their distinctions for the 1925 halfcrown, which states;-

"Always considered very rare - this may be rarer than some, but not as rare as 1923"    

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30 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

Possibly, but I still think that Scarce in relation to a population of 251 - 500 is rather ridiculous. It means that there is no way to differentiate the 1912H from the 1919KN penny, both of which would exceed those figures, in one case by 000,000, in the other by far less. It also means that the 1913 "mules" could not be described as scarce, nor 1864 or 1865/3 pennies and any number of other examples. 

Your example of wreath crowns is perhaps the exception: 932 (1934) as a proportion of all wreath crowns minted excluding 1927, is not so small, and as you say this was an issue where nearly all original strikes still exist and come up regularly for sale.

I'd still like one though, but they are damned expensive. 

They do come up, but not nearly as regularly as Crowns in the surrounding dates, as might be expected. 

Edited by 1949threepence

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1 minute ago, 1949threepence said:

I'd still like one though, but they are damned expensive. 

They do come up, though not nearly as regularly as Crowns in the surrounding dates, as might be expected. 

I have 3 wreaths if you include the 1927, but have never really been that interested in owning the 1934, unless for kudos reasons. Strangely, I'd be more excited to own the 1936.

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1 minute ago, Peckris 2 said:

I have 3 wreaths if you include the 1927, but have never really been that interested in owning the 1934, unless for kudos reasons. Strangely, I'd be more excited to own the 1936.

They are a super looking series, with undoubted coin charisma. 

Just give me the kudos.......;)  

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2 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

They are a super looking series, with undoubted coin charisma. 

Just give me the kudos.......;)  

I think the 1936 is a rare coin, but not grossly overpriced like the 1934. Also, it is the only rare item in the otherwise extremely common 1936 denomination series.

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17 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

I have 3 wreaths if you include the 1927, but have never really been that interested in owning the 1934, unless for kudos reasons. Strangely, I'd be more excited to own the 1936.

Hello fellow strange man. This date floats my boat too.

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16 hours ago, PWA 1967 said:

The group of three has gone 😊

Just the 1939 BU CGS 82 on its own left for £20 Posted.

1895 BU CGS 82 £87 posted.................PM me for pictures if interested

1951 BU CGS 82 currency £55 posted

Pete.

 

The other 1939 has gone also.

Sorry to interupt and i also like the designs of the crowns 😊.

Pete.

 

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On 10/16/2018 at 11:46 PM, blakeyboy said:

I normally do an internet sweep for pennies 3-4 times a week when I have the time,

and the F76 is the one I start looking for.

The F69 is supposedly nearly as rare, but I've had five of those....

 

The F69 isn't as rare as the F76, but like the F76, it's extremely difficult to get one in decent grade. I was very lucky to get one at auction in GVF when John Stephenson auctioned his late Father's collection in August 2017. 

There is an EF F69, and the F76 from the Laurie Bamford collection is about GEF.    

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