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WildCamper

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zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

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aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh! i just had a terrible dream!!!! i was in an air conditioned shop surrounded by thousands of shiney coins and almost blinded by them and through squinty eyes i could see my old school history teacher approaching me, leering and slobbering in glee with handfulls of certificates of authenticity fanned out in his hands like a las vegas croupier.....as his loupe fell out he said in an almost orgasmic whisper.....''sell me your soul and all these ms-70's are yourrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrs''

anyway....back to sleep.....hopefully the next one will be about cow pats....night all!:D

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hi...i've got a question for you experts....

i would imagine many of you have hammered/ancient coins in your collection.....how many of them would you say, percentage-wise, were discovered by metal dectectorists or similar and how many of them were simply found laying in draws/chests/house clearances or similar?

regards,

prep

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I have a few coins that were detector finds prep.  One that was hidden away as part of a hoard on land owned by a Royalist, sometime around September 1642.  

However, the majority were probably found by workers tilling fields, digging foundations or other building work, since they were found before detectors were in common use.  I know this because I know when they were bought, came up for sale or whose collections they were part of.

As for found in drawers .. very few I imagine.  Although I do have one that was found, with others, in an old disused safe!

Personally I always like to know a bit about the background to my coins and if they belonged to earlier collectors then that makes them more interesting to me. 

Digging up my own?  Not so bothered.  But, each to their own!

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interesting...interesting.....but i wonder how many of that majority found by workers were treated with the regard they are today and ended up in collections as compared to ones found now?.....i mean....coin collecting in any serious capacity is a fairly new thing no?......and i wonder how quickly that majority will turn to a minority as time, appreciation and metal detecting continue.....

i'm interested in your line '' Personally I always like to know a bit about the background to my coins and if they belonged to earlier collectors then that makes them more interesting to me ''......its in the same vein as robs earlier comment.....but i note he used ''i am reasonably certain'' and ''we think''.......

seems all a bit shakey to me, maybe you could educate me please as i'm a newbie.....surely any coin can have paperwork stuck with it and its price grossly and incorrectly inflated?.....

i'm an 'it is what it is' guy.....not an 'it is what it might be'.....i'm all for imagination, mystery, speculation and questions but not one for any amount of potential bull****....though as i said, maybe my ignorance makes me blinkered....

regards!! and btw.....i remember reading your 'happy as a cat full of sixpences' for the first time, made me chuckle!!! still does!

p

ps.....may i ask how much  PC's Rawlins Oxford crown is worth with its 'we think' and 'reasonably certain' attached and how much without?

Edited by ThePrepper

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15 hours ago, ThePrepper said:

erm....like.....who held it?.....where has it been?.....how did it get here? are there more? where am i?

none of which really apply to an unc in a plastic wallet. and 'finding' it at a fair implies its not exactly lost....

or am i crazy?

 

I think that you can still have all these thoughts when you 'find' a coin, whether online, at a coin fair, at a nice safe shop, or indeed in the ground!

I have very few UNC coins, many of mine are VF or worse.  I like the romance of thinking about where the coins have been and who may have held them, but I'm happy to track them down at dealers and fairs rather than digging them up from the great outdoors!

Vive la difference indeed.  Have fun with the detecting, Prep.  Hope you find loads!

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lol.....i'm clearly on the wrong forum.....

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Here you go. 

Grant%20Francis_zpsifmqhmbt.jpg

I can guess from the dint in this coin that it was dug up.  When and where is now lost to time.  However I do know (with Rob's help) that it was owned by the architect Frederic Walters (1849-1931) and when his collection was sold in May 1913 it was bought by the firm of Baldwins on behalf of the collector Grant Francis.  Francis used the coin (2, IIb,2 above and the background to the pic of my coin) to illustrate the type in his paper in the British Numismatic Journal (1918) in which he attempted to order and classify the known varieties of silver coinage of Charles I.  His numbering system is still used by some collectors today.

Francis' collection was sold by Glendinings in March 1920 and the coin ended up in the collection of Richard Cyril Lockett.  A collection so large that it took 11 sales over 6 years to dispose of them all.  My coin was bought by Baldwins in October 1956.  Sadly, there the trail goes cold until the coin turns up again (unprovenanced) with the dealer Mark Rasmussen in April 2004.  I bought it subsequently from another dealer the next year, but only really managed to piece together some of the collector history fairly recently. 

Having illustrated catalogues helps, as does coin 'tickets' which are little pieces of paper that collectors use to describe coins in their collection.  While having a ticket with a coin is not absolute proof that the coin in your hand is one described in a book or catalogue, it helps.  Rob's Rawlins crown example is of a coin sufficiently well known and recognised that one can track it through the hands of collectors with some degree of certainty. 

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ok...thats mildly interesting.....and thanks for your time!!! but thats not the 'history' of the coin.

anyone want to know my story about how i bought a coin from argentum on ebay?.....or about the one i got from rp coins? i can even provide the receipts!!!

no...didnt think so.:P

p

Edited by ThePrepper

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I disagree.  It's as much the history of the coin as the fact that it was minted sometime between 30 Jun 1631-21 Jun 1632 at the Tower of London from silver mined and refined in Wales at Thomas Bushell's mine near Aberystwyth.  We know that because the reverse design bears the Prince of Wales' plumes above the shield; an agreed sign to show coins minted from Welsh silver. 

Beyond that, what do we know about any coin?  Whose hands it passed through, how many loaves of bread or pints of ale it bought will always be guesswork and imagination.  But who thought it worthwhile keeping to study, to show to friends, to save from the melting pot and pass on to others, these things are facts.

Coin collecting has been going on for thousands of years, although until the 1600's probably only among the really wealthy.  Without collectors, given that the majority of coin was collected up, melted and restruck in the Great Recoinages of 1696 and 1816, we would probably have but a fraction of the hammered coins that still exist today.  They'd have just been chucked in the melting pot or made into jewellery or something.

And without numismatic research we'd know little of how to tell when a coin was struck, which king it represents or where it was made.  We'd have no easy way to tell if we have a typical example or something unusual.  We'd have to guess at where the metal that our coins are made of came from, who designed them and in some cases who struck them.  You want 'the guy that made the coin' .. well, that's part of the history that depends on collectors  too.

Facts are the history to me.  Not the 'what might have been's or romantic guesswork about the soldier who received this coin is his pay and what he spent it on or whatever...

But as I say, different strokes for different folks!

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well i better hang onto my ebay receipts and my rp coins business card then....one day my descendants will be extremely wealthy and clued up too about the important facts about my coins....shame i'm not a wealthy rupert because theyd then be worth even more....

give me the guy that made the coin over the silver spoon up his jacksie victorian who owned it at some point....

i'm off to bcuk and metaldetectingforum to talk about cow pats....

booyakasha!

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33 minutes ago, ThePrepper said:

i'm off to bcuk and metaldetectingforum to talk about cow pats....

 

LOL  Different things appeal to different people prep.  Nothing wrong with detecting - I can quite understand the thrill of the 'treasure hunt' as I enjoy beachcombing and get as much thrill from finding a bit of broken Victorian pottery or a fossil as I do a coin that fills a gap.  So long as sites aren't damaged in the process and the details are recorded for the geeks amongst us of course.  :P

But I like coins for the design.  They are little pieces of art (not to mention propaganda).  And ultimately, it's nice when that art looks pleasing and the design is clear and you can appreciate the work that went into making the thing.  Particularly the sort I collect, where it's all a hand process from die engraving to striking and a slip or off-centre hit can result in an unreadable mess! 

Yes, some dug coins can be in excellent condition (particularly ones buried as part of a hoard).  But most just aren't.  And if I had to choose between a coin that's been stuck in a pile of mud somewhere for 400 years or one that I know has been held onto by collectors I can name, I will usually find the latter more interesting, that's all.

:D

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9 hours ago, ThePrepper said:

interesting...interesting.....but i wonder how many of that majority found by workers were treated with the regard they are today and ended up in collections as compared to ones found now?.....i mean....coin collecting in any serious capacity is a fairly new thing no?......and i wonder how quickly that majority will turn to a minority as time, appreciation and metal detecting continue.....

i'm interested in your line '' Personally I always like to know a bit about the background to my coins and if they belonged to earlier collectors then that makes them more interesting to me ''......its in the same vein as robs earlier comment.....but i note he used ''i am reasonably certain'' and ''we think''.......

seems all a bit shakey to me, maybe you could educate me please as i'm a newbie.....surely any coin can have paperwork stuck with it and its price grossly and incorrectly inflated?.....

i'm an 'it is what it is' guy.....not an 'it is what it might be'.....i'm all for imagination, mystery, speculation and questions but not one for any amount of potential bull****....though as i said, maybe my ignorance makes me blinkered....

regards!! and btw.....i remember reading your 'happy as a cat full of sixpences' for the first time, made me chuckle!!! still does!

p

ps.....may i ask how much  PC's Rawlins Oxford crown is worth with its 'we think' and 'reasonably certain' attached and how much without?

The uncertainty in a provenance must be inferred due to the lack of direct contemporary documentation identifying the coin in question to the people named, but in the case of the two items referred to earlier there is very good circumstantial evidence to support the link. The info came from doing the spadework.

My 1601 portcullis halfpenny came has catalogued provenance back to the Earl of Pembroke who died in 1733. The Pembrokes were noted collectors and patrons of the arts and it seems highly likely that Mary Sidney (the poet and author), who was one of Elizabeth I's inner coterie, was the initial recipient of the coin. She married the second Earl of Pembroke, and frequently entertained the Queen at Wilton House. She was clearly a favourite at court, both before and after her marriage. The coin would be passed down from one generation to the next.

Again, in the case of the Oxford crown there is a line of descent through marriage prior to a documented catalogued provenance starting in the 1700s. As for a value, think of a 6 figure sum and take it from there, with or without the provenance.

Both have to be supportive of the origins, because as a random occurrence, you would be incredibly lucky to hit the jackpot twice. These items did not circulate being presentation pieces, so personal connection would be everything.

Whilst you might think coin collecting is relatively modern, there is also evidence indicating collecting coins has always existed. The Bolsena hoard found in the 1880s in northern Italy contained a large number of Sestertii and other denominations. These covered a period of nearly two centuries and contained a significant number of as struck coins. Clearly a sestertius would not circulate for that long without signs of wear, so the question is whether they were deposited around 200 AD having been collected during Roman times, or at a much later date with a requirement to be 'found'. The earth deposits suggest the former. There is no reason to suggest that anyone today is markedly different in habits to a bloke of two millennia ago. Lifestyles might have changed over time, but basic habits?

Edited by Rob

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OK OK OK!!!!! all taken on board!!!! you nutters!

and something happened last week thats helped me see your opinions  a tad clearer.....

not only have i been buying nicer and nicer coins for myself in the short time i've been collecting but at the weekend i was given a substantial collection....majority victoria till now but with plenty of earlier too going back to 1700's....

virtually complete runs of crowns, half crowns, godless and gothic florins, double florins, sixpence, shilling, threepence, farthing, penny, halfpenny, groats, half/third/quarter farthings etc etc and yes theres a 1905 half crown and 1902 crown (both gorgeous) and gems like italian 5 lire 1812 for example in cracking condition...still getting my head round it....for last few days all i've done is sort thousands of coins....my necks killing me and my eyes arent working properly anymore lol!!

a lot of it had been stored in old plastic sleeves which had started to decay and stick together but everything seems ok and luckily verdigris has hardly made an appearance anywhere....my workshop currently looks like a miniature coin museum and i've not even looked at doing any leatherwork and i'm behind on my commissions and the biggest show of my year is looming and to be honest i couldnt care less!! i'm in heaven haha!!

and yeah....i got a metal detector too and am now a member of the lp club and fully licensed up with the fid and the ncmd....

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!

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Wooooooosh ZZZZZZZZ

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4 hours ago, ThePrepper said:

OK OK OK!!!!! all taken on board!!!! you nutters!

and something happened last week thats helped me see your opinions  a tad clearer.....

not only have i been buying nicer and nicer coins for myself in the short time i've been collecting but at the weekend i was given a substantial collection....majority victoria till now but with plenty of earlier too going back to 1700's....

virtually complete runs of crowns, half crowns, godless and gothic florins, double florins, sixpence, shilling, threepence, farthing, penny, halfpenny, groats, half/third/quarter farthings etc etc and yes theres a 1905 half crown and 1902 crown (both gorgeous) and gems like italian 5 lire 1812 for example in cracking condition...still getting my head round it....for last few days all i've done is sort thousands of coins....my necks killing me and my eyes arent working properly anymore lol!!

a lot of it had been stored in old plastic sleeves which had started to decay and stick together but everything seems ok and luckily verdigris has hardly made an appearance anywhere....my workshop currently looks like a miniature coin museum and i've not even looked at doing any leatherwork and i'm behind on my commissions and the biggest show of my year is looming and to be honest i couldnt care less!! i'm in heaven haha!!

and yeah....i got a metal detector too and am now a member of the lp club and fully licensed up with the fid and the ncmd....

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!

Lucky you mate, sounds like your getting into it!!!!! Enjoy them?

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Wow - were you actually given all those coins?  Sounds like an amazing windfall.  Any you might want to spare??

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1 hour ago, Stuntman said:

Wow - were you actually given all those coins?  Sounds like an amazing windfall.  Any you might want to spare??

Yeah prep, come on tell us what happened!! Did you swap them for some old skool vinyls!!!

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As a detectorist of 4 years with fairly productive land I like the thrill of digging up a nice coin or even any coin. As someone who also has a collector mentality (collected various thing over years, toys, cameras..etc) I can also understand the mint condition, provenanced and completisum school of thought. Really is horses for courses but where both worlds touch. After all collectors want coins, detectorists dig them up.

I would make one point though made earlier in the post, we have far more hammered coinage available now due to coin losses and hoards found by detectorists than by coin collectors collecting coins. The casual losses and hoarding would have saved far more coins from the many recoinages over the years.

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