Jump to content
British Coin Forum - Predecimal.com

50 Years of RotographicCoinpublications.com A Rotographic Imprint. Price guide reference book publishers since 1959. Lots of books on coins, banknotes and medals. Please visit and like Coin Publications on Facebook for offers and updates.

Coin Publications on Facebook

   Rotographic    

The current range of books. Click the image above to see them on Amazon (printed and Kindle format). More info on coinpublications.com

predecimal.comPredecimal.com. One of the most popular websites on British pre-decimal coins, with hundreds of coins for sale, advice for beginners and interesting information.

Sign in to follow this  
Coinery

What makes a Variety Type Set?

Recommended Posts

Inspired by @coinkat's post and some of the answers given, how would you define what makes up (for example) an Edward VII type set, to include known/documented varieties...how would you go about creating a wish list?

For example (and I haven't the books to hand) how would you set out the pennies for Edward VII? Would you just go for 1 example of a penny, say 1902...oh, and maybe a Low Tide? But is that it, or do you have to ask the question about an open 3? Do you then include some of the Groom findings for a given date? Do you then have to have a normal 3? What do you do?

I confess that date runs interest me, for the same reason any other collection appeals. But equally Type Sets and full monarch collections appeal. I even once thought I would collect every die example of an Elizabeth I Martlet shilling, and then move to another PM...it's essentially a completionist, probably Aspergers thing.

So, just so I don't miss out on the Monarch Type Sets, how would you define one in the context of Ed7?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have started building Edward VII and George V type sets. For the time being I'm looking at one example for each coin. Maybe later I will start expanding the type set to different varieties of each coin found during the reign.

So, for example, for Edward VII, I have a:

Third farthing

Penny

Sixpence

Shilling

Florin

So far. Still a few to get before I start worrying about varieties.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When it comes to extending some of the denominations to include the varieties, does that mean a 1902, 1902LT, 1903, 1903OPEN penny etc.?

I have a feeling it would be difficult to draw the line between the above scenario and a Full monarch set?

Just diggin' around for insights into how people might approach  the addition of varieties to a Type Set?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Scope creep" is the problem. Where do you draw the line? My thought is to start very basic and then I can expand as little or much as I want as the mood takes me. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Varieties are great to search for and collect, but if you're not careful, they can start to go on forever, with the merest difference from norm, such as one extra border tooth, counted as a variety. For that reason, I limit myself to Freeman types, and the odd well known Gouby.

No disrespect to those who want to go the extra mile. Good luck to them. But just not for me at this precise moment in time. 

With specific regard to Edward VII (and this is one penny run I've started but not finished), I'd go for all the Freemans and leave it at that. Although I appreciate there are many micro varieties (even in just one year, 1902) as we have seen from the old coin monthly articles that Richard very kindly e mailed to some of us recently.    

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I feel I'd definitely confine myself to a 'book' run, meaning, for me, Davies and Freeman, possibly Spink for a basic gold set (and you couldn't of course miss out the few extra 20thC coins of Groom), if I was going for a full monarch or date run, but that doesn't clear up where I'd draw the line in a Monarch Type Set.

I think the best position is to either avoid varieties altogether, or accept you're going to have a serious problem with any underlying tendencies towards OCD.

Many thanks for your insights, gents! :) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would go for an example of each denomination, so that would essentially be a long proof set, together with a sovereign and half from each of the overseas mints. I would probably hope to find the 1902 pattern crown and 1908 satin proof penny, but without much conviction of ever getting the latter.

The next break point in terms of an expanded list would be a date run of the above types but in current coins only because the long set would be proofs. Maundy would also be required. A low tide penny and halfpenny would be required as a distinct design change, but not the open 3

The third level would be a warts and all collection encompassing all the varieties known to mankind.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

'Distinct design change,' that the one! I couldn't see the wood for the trees, that's why a 1903 wouldn't be included! Got it! :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have always used the phrase "intentional design change" because I think that is where I found myself being led when looking at farthings. There will always be anomalies, but you have to try and least define thresholds for inclusion.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very much so, Colin, I think it's the defining marker for all research, I just failed to make the link for a Monarch Type Set. As soon as you start adding varieties, you move into an all inclusive Monarch Set, simply because you can't add an open 1903 penny, without adding a normal date 1903, and then IF a 1903, a standard 1904 would be no less a variety.

ALSO, for the record, it really p****s me off when I read back over things and notice my phone has not only changed words, but even removed, on occasion, extensions like 's from the ends of words! I'm not always inebriated, honest! :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Varieties are great to search for and collect, but if you're not careful, they can start to go on forever, with the merest difference from norm, such as one extra border tooth, counted as a variety. For that reason, I limit myself to Freeman types, and the odd well known Gouby.

No disrespect to those who want to go the extra mile. Good luck to them. But just not for me at this precise moment in time. 

With specific regard to Edward VII (and this is one penny run I've started but not finished), I'd go for all the Freemans and leave it at that. Although I appreciate there are many micro varieties (even in just one year, 1902) as we have seen from the old coin monthly articles that Richard very kindly e mailed to some of us recently.    

 

 

On the face of it I can understand you feeling that the number of teeth/beads is insignificant ,as it shows little on the overall appearance of the coin , but that's not the whole story. Taking Pre-Decimal bronze pennies,[ my passion ], in the 107 years of mass production of circulation type dies, there were only 19 obverse, and 13 reverse pennies with differing numbers of teeth/beads. [as yet found] .  Usually the number of teeth/beads changed with the changing of the image or font . But not always . In some years, notable 1860 1874 1908 1911 and others multiple changes were made to the number of teeth/beads with little change to the image or font.  This would suggest that The Mint was trying out different dies for the next generation of pennies, and with only small amounts of them being released into circulation.   It follows that most of the one year only tooth/bead die types are scarce or rare.  This obviously is a minimal visual change, but significant in terms of the sequence of the dies used.  These changes were deliberate ,and not made by error or chance, so must be part of the Historical sequence of die experimentation in coin production at the Mint.    Terry

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I guess we are all completionists, as much as it's possible to be, depending mostly on the extent of our collecting parameters.

When coming to the end of a 'basic' run of Freeman pennies, I'm guessing there'd likely be a temptation to expand it further into the more recently published micro-varieties? Equally, one might opt for the pleasure of closing a lid on something, and beginning instead a new Davies run of shillings?

It's human nature, particular the nature of males, to want orderly boxes, for everything, so a micro-varietal penny collector is no less diseased (well, maybe, lol) than the collector who 'closes the lid' on a simpler Type Set, only to immediately open the lid on a new box.

We just keep going on, for as long as we can suffer the tension that an open-lid box delivers upon our delicate little male brains (and the delicate little brains of some very strange females too, of course :) ).

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not so sure there is a satisfying answer to a variety type set. As for an Edward VII type set, I would include a Maundy Set and an example of each denomination ending with a Sovereign. I do see date sets as a worthy challenge... Especially the Florin which I view as the most attractive 20th Century British coin.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry to be a bit late to this.

I'd say that a type set's scope is defined by an individual collector and their interests. For example, when it comes to silver, I'm not particularly interested in silver varieties (which are anyway "micro" varieties), and would settle for one of each denomination.

As far as bronze is concerned, any variety collecting would start - and possibly end - with the LT as those were very definitely a first 'type', replaced by the high tide. For halfpennies and farthings, that's pretty much it. For pennies you could go down a very long road, starting with an 'open 3', the 1905s, all those 1908-9 rarities, etc. 

There's nothing to stop you having a basic type set of each denomination, then constructing a full set of pennies if that takes your interest.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/4/2017 at 2:09 PM, Coinery said:

I guess we are all completionists, as much as it's possible to be, depending mostly on the extent of our collecting parameters.

When coming to the end of a 'basic' run of Freeman pennies, I'm guessing there'd likely be a temptation to expand it further into the more recently published micro-varieties? Equally, one might opt for the pleasure of closing a lid on something, and beginning instead a new Davies run of shillings?

It's human nature, particular the nature of males, to want orderly boxes, for everything, so a micro-varietal penny collector is no less diseased (well, maybe, lol) than the collector who 'closes the lid' on a simpler Type Set, only to immediately open the lid on a new box.

We just keep going on, for as long as we can suffer the tension that an open-lid box delivers upon our delicate little male brains (and the delicate little brains of some very strange females too, of course :) ).

Good points, Stuart. But one thing that strikes me is that even if you limit your penny collection to Freeman types only, and nothing else, I'd say it's still virtually impossible to obtain every single last specimen type, even over a 60 year collecting period. Some, such as the Freeman 2,5,19, 34,44 and every single proof type, will elude you for a lifetime. OK, you might get one or two of the examples I mentioned, but not all. Plus, that's just a sample of the "almost impossible to get your hands on" brigade. There are innumerable others, such as die No 5 under 1863 date.

Even then, you're almost certainly going to have to content yourself with a fine or less example of the rarer Freeman varieties, you do manage to obtain.

Tough old business being a completionist ;)

 

     

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You will never get them all Mike the english grading company has 87 bronze varieties just for 1860 :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, PWA 1967 said:

You will never get them all Mike the english grading company has 87 bronze varieties just for 1860 :lol:

In fact, Pete, you only have to look at any major collection to realise that not all specimen types are present. Far from it.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is the same for virtually every denomination.

Inability to add to a collection is often the reason for stopping and moving on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Rob said:

It is the same for virtually every denomination.

Inability to add to a collection is often the reason for stopping and moving on.

Not so much "inability' to add to my sixpence collection but already having many of the examples I want means that my 'buy list' is somewhat shorter now. For that reason I have branched out into a couple of type sets. It is enjoyable to have a slightly changed focus.

I think that when one likes coins, even if an interest area is quite focused, it isn't hard to find other areas to enjoy.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, I expanded into hammered groats (and then shillings) when my crowns were virtually complete.  That doesn't preclude looking at crowns and collecting a few more varieties as and when they turn up (I've added the 1888 wide date and Exeter 'Barrel garniture') in the last couple of years).  I don't intend to collect overstruck letters or dates though.    

Edited by pokal02
spelling

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×