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po_bob

1861/21 half penny?

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The underdate appears to me to be a 2.  Too slender to be a 9 or an inverted 9 or a 6, and does not look like the other 8 on the coin.  I do not see what else it could be, other than a 2.  Any thoughts or information?

1861over21 date det.jpg

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There is no sign of the horizontal, so it could be an initial attempt at putting the 6 in upside down. To punch in a number would take a few blows, so if only one side of the numeral was entered and the error identified then corrected, it should be possible to see the above.

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If you download and enlarge this image a bit, what seems to be the lower left corner of a 2 appears to be extending outside the six at around 7:30, at the place you would expect by extending the arc visible within the loop of the 6, with the trace of the horizontal extending left to right, and the upturned tail of the two very close to the lower outside right of the 6.  Similarly the outside of the upper curve of a 2 appears outside the upper arm of the 6 at around 11:00.  To me, at any rate.  If the underdate IS a 6 or an inverted 6 or a 9, it must have been from a different set of numerals as it appears to be much more narrow than the overdate 6.  I can find no mention of an 1861/21 half penny, though.  I hoped someone with access to better books than I might find information on this die.

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hopefully a bit better

Screenshot 2017-02-12 01.26.37.png

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Looks to curved to be a 2 in my opinion, the 2 has a straight back once halfway down the length of the digit. I agree with Rob, more likely to be a rotated 6. How does the curve of the 6 compare when overlaid?

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Thank you for your reply.  If it is a rotated 6, I believe it would have to be a farthing-sized six, as the underdate numeral does not seem to extend to the top or the bottom of the overdate six.  Your point about the lower half of the downstroke of a 2 being straight is a good one, at least insofar as the 2s being used in 1861.

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But if this set of numeral punches was still lurking in the cabinet.....

1852 half penny:

 

1852-Queen-Victoria-Halfpenny date det.jpg

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4 hours ago, po_bob said:

Thank you for your reply.  If it is a rotated 6, I believe it would have to be a farthing-sized six, as the underdate numeral does not seem to extend to the top or the bottom of the overdate six.  Your point about the lower half of the downstroke of a 2 being straight is a good one, at least insofar as the 2s being used in 1861.

There is an 1876H halfpenny with a 6 overlying a farthing punch 6, so this can't be discounted.

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4 hours ago, po_bob said:

Thank you for your reply.  If it is a rotated 6, I believe it would have to be a farthing-sized six, as the underdate numeral does not seem to extend to the top or the bottom of the overdate six.  Your point about the lower half of the downstroke of a 2 being straight is a good one, at least insofar as the 2s being used in 1861.

You often find that the underlying digit/letter may only be partially visible, so I wouldn't read too much into the fact that you can not see the top or bottom of the 6

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Thanks to all for their replies.  After a recent recent Windows update my scanner no longer functioned, but with some fiddling around I got it to go but at no better than half the resolution of which it was formerly capable.  The following image was at 1200dpi, with the contrast turned up all the way. 

UK1861oversomething1 half penny scan rev contrast 100 date det.jpg

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I'd say 'something' is going on, but it could be absolutely anything in my view...even a tool dropped on the die, who knows? There is a tiny fleck sticking out of the right centre of the 8 too, but what can you do, that's all we can say about it? Speaking only for myself, when an overdate or overmark is inconclusive, it should be documented only as an example of a particular die, much as we do for repairs to lettering, etc. until such a time as documentary evidence, or subsequent die examples, prove the case otherwise. The OP coin is not worn to a degree that compromises the details of the underlying shape, suggesting to me that a better example will not reveal anything extra, though I stand to be corrected.

To be true to numismatics we'd be correct to catalogue this kind of coin along the lines of something like 'the 1861 new moon die,' for example, in the same way we have 'dot' pennies!

They will be valid and useful one day in the chronology of the dies, so absolutely 100% worth documenting in locations like these, until such a time as they can be collated together in a future online repository!

 

 

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Guest Pablo thomas

I have a 1861 half penny the condition isn't great,however as far as I can tell it is of a v.rare variety any thoughts would be welcome:]

15209757620691544993739.jpg

1520975960353313395640.jpg

15209757620691544993739.jpg

1520975960353313395640.jpg

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you'll need a real close up pic of the date only. impossible to see anything from the pictures

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