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terrysoldpennies

1905 penny 3rd type

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Hopefully you've all had a good Christmas, and as its now over I have a new type for the New Year .  I'm sure most of you know that there are two types of 1905 penny listed, the F160 with the E in PENNY pointing to the gap between the teeth [ early type] , and the F161 with the rotated E pointing to the tooth [late type].  Well I noticed some time ago that some of the F160s have a small zero in the date, this by its self seemed of little importance ,  but I later realised that all of the pennies with the large zero , both F160s and F161s all have the straight bottoms to the Es in PENNY, whereas the small zero type, on all the examples I have managed to find , have the wavy bottomed Es.   The straight and wavy Es were both in use from 1899 through to 1905, but only the straight type from then on.  The small zero was used from 1901 to 1905, and after this the large zero from 1905 to 1908.  This means that it is a transitional type reverse die used between the 1904  F159 and the 1905  F160.  It also suggests that the differing bottoms to the Es, was a Font change, rather than a warn die creation.  As if it was caused by wear, then you would expect to find at least some of the F160s and the F161s with the large zeros to have the wavy Es .       Terry

Top :-  New type F160

Middle :-   F160

Bottom :-  F161 

1905  three typs of date.JPG

1905  three typs of E in PENNY.JPG

1905 small 0  2.JPG

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Thats really nice work, Terry!

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Great eye Terry, and very well detailed. This could be part and parcel of trying to iron out the problems they had from changing the bust design, differing shapes/sizes of numerals and fonts etc. A question, as I don't have an F160 to compare, does the E in ONE also differ between these varieties?

The F160 is hard enough as it is... don't say I need to find 2 of the buggers :D 

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1 minute ago, Nordle11 said:

Great eye Terry, and very well detailed. This could be part and parcel of trying to iron out the problems they had from changing the bust design, differing shapes/sizes of numerals and fonts etc. A question, as I don't have an F160 to compare, does the E in ONE also differ between these varieties?

The F160 is hard enough as it is... don't say I need to find 2 of the buggers :D 

No Matt , not between the F160 & the F161 as both have the straight bottom to the E, but the new F160 if we may call it F160a has the wavy E .  Terry

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Nice find.

A.R.Alexander together with A.M.Lisk had already found this variety and describe it in their April 1977 Coin Monthly article "Variants of the Modern British Penny 1895-1967" thus:-

Minor Varieties

1. Reverse B with the 5 of the date close to the 0 (about 1/2mm gap). Alexander. 5 in 6 (83%).

2. Reverse B with 5 distant from o (nearly 1mm gap). Alexander. 1 in 6 (17%). 

Reverse B corresponds to Freeman F160.

Dave Groom also describes this variety in his book.

Edited by AardHawk

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1 hour ago, AardHawk said:

Nice find.

A.R.Alexander together with A.M.Lisk had already found this variety and describe it in their April 1977 Coin Monthly article "Variants of the Modern British Penny 1895-1967" thus:-

Minor Varieties

1. Reverse B with the 5 of the date close to the 0 (about 1/2mm gap). Alexander. 5 in 6 (83%).

2. Reverse B with 5 distant from o (nearly 1mm gap). Alexander. 1 in 6 (17%). 

Reverse B corresponds to Freeman F160.

Dave Groom also describes this variety in his book.

Well remembered AH.

If anything, Terry, it serves as confirmation of your own findings. @DaveG38 do you mention anything about the curved E or the size of the 0 in the date or only regarding the spacing between the numerals? Sorry no book to hand.

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Its also mentioned in full detail with the size of the O.

If you would like the coin monthly from MAY 1977 Terry PM me your details and happy to post FOC

Pete.

Edited by PWA 1967

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PM or mail me your address Richard as dont have a scanner but will post you the hard copy.

Maybe you can Scan and send me a copy and anyone else that maybe interested.

Pete.

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46 minutes ago, PWA 1967 said:

PM or mail me your address Richard as dont have a scanner but will post you the hard copy.

Maybe you can Scan and send me a copy and anyone else that maybe interested.

Pete.

That sounds a good idea, I would like a scan too if possible.

Jerry

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Pete

I've messaged you my address and will be happy to send scans to interested parties.

Regards

Richard

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Hi I have been out all evening sorry, on the reverse B the gap between the 0 & 5 only vary because of the 0 being smaller and slightly narrower, the overall width of the date is the same on both F160 types [Rev B] ,but the rev C is slightly narrower.  its the fact that I have only found the wavy E to be present on coins with the small 0 type date .  terry

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I think you may be onto something Terry with the wavy E.

Heres my poor contribution;

img20170103_14152224.jpg

Small zero on the left and has a wavy E!

You are right to describe these as Small Zero as that really stands out when you eyeball them.

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1 hour ago, AardHawk said:

I think you may be onto something Terry with the wavy E.

Heres my poor contribution;

img20170103_14152224.jpg

Small zero on the left and has a wavy E!

You are right to describe these as Small Zero as that really stands out when you eyeball them.

Well actually your small 0 penny creates an even bigger conundrum , as on all of the small 0s I have found, all had the wavy E in PENNY & on the E in ONE ,whereas the one you show has wavy in ONE and straight in PENNY, that's as far as I can tell from your picture. But this still show that the wavy Es are only found on small 0 types.  see mine above     Terry 

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On 02/01/2017 at 7:39 PM, jelida said:

That sounds a good idea, I would like a scan too if possible.

Jerry

ooh, count me in for a copy of the scan too, please :)  Sounds right up my street...

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On ‎02‎/‎01‎/‎2017 at 3:31 PM, PWA 1967 said:

Its also mentioned in full detail with the size of the O.

If you would like the coin monthly from MAY 1977 Terry PM me your details and happy to post FOC

Pete.

Pete, I sent a message about this some days ago via the message box . can you let me know if it arrived , or is it not working .  Terry

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Hi Terry.

I have been going through a lot of different ones for different pennies.

The cleaners were here on tuesday as i was going to post it to Richard and one offered to scan them all for me.

I will post as soon as i receive them all as there maybe others you are interested in.

Pete.

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37 minutes ago, PWA 1967 said:

Hi Terry.

I have been going through a lot of different ones for different pennies.

The cleaners were here on tuesday as i was going to post it to Richard and one offered to scan them all for me.

I will post as soon as i receive them all as there maybe others you are interested in.

Pete.

That's great Pete, thanks.   Terry

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Pete

If the cleaner struggles or doesn't make a good job of it, send them to me and I'll scan them, distribute copies and return the originals to you.

Richard

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Will sort something out as there is about fifteen altogether that are all penny related from the seventies and some over a few pages.

Although i wont get the hard copies back till Tuesday.

Pete.

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I have a stack of about 50+ Coin Monthlys that have penny articles in, I've tabbed them all but I just haven't gotten around to scanning them yet. I will one day I promise.

 

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I would also like a copy of the scans please. Whoever scans them can you please drop me a PM so I can give you my email address.

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On 1/5/2017 at 1:33 PM, PWA 1967 said:

Hi Terry.

I have been going through a lot of different ones for different pennies.

The cleaners were here on tuesday as i was going to post it to Richard and one offered to scan them all for me.

I will post as soon as i receive them all as there maybe others you are interested in.

Pete.

The scans were not the best so posted the hard copies to Richard today of the penny articles i found between 1970-77.

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2 hours ago, PWA 1967 said:

The scans were not the best so posted the hard copies to Richard today of the penny articles i found between 1970-77.

That's great Pete . thanks again .   Terry

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