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cathrine

1860 Bronzed Proof Penny

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33 minutes ago, Michael-Roo said:

Maybe its a strand of fibre?

Hopefully Catherine can show us what she got when it arrives

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20 hours ago, cathrine said:

I've recently acquired a proof 1860 Victorian penny. It's a Freeman 4 specimen that's graded PF 66 Bronzed by PCGS. I've tried to find a provenance for this coin, but I've been unsuccessful. Can any of the "Penny Experts" help me in this regard?

81706769_Large.jpg

The picture of the coin indicates the coin is a beauty ! Well done. Spink pictures have been generally quite poor. I think the coin will more than likely resemble the PCGS picture. When you receive the coin would you please weigh it, including its slab, so that we can attempt to work out the weight of the coin please.

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I'm not convinced the weights of the slabs would be consistent enough to tell you anything. The blanks from the mint are likely to be tighter tolerance than a production line where you have no trading standards or monetary standards to consider

 

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2 hours ago, cathrine said:

I'd like to express my thanks to everyone that participated in this discussion.

The Spink auction coin is undoubtedly the coin being offered by Atlas Numismatics, and the Spink vs. PCGS photographs are quite different. Naturally, no matter how accurate or inaccurate they are, photos will never replace a hands-on examination.

I do have a 14 day return privilage from Atlas, so I'm glad that the final decision will depend on my evaluation of the actual coin rather than the photographs.

To be fair (at this point) I have also bought coins from Spink that were much better in hand than their pictures looked....

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2 hours ago, Rob said:

I'm not convinced the weights of the slabs would be consistent enough to tell you anything. The blanks from the mint are likely to be tighter tolerance than a production line where you have no trading standards or monetary standards to consider

I agree.  There will be huge variability in the slab weights.  In contrast, the earlier Victorian standards (relaxed in 1890s)  were so strict, especially so for gold, that 50% or more of struck coinage was rejected for being out of tolerance.

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When it arrives, I'll photograph the coin and post the results in a topic that will be entitled: "1860 Bronzed Proof Penny - Photos".

Fortunately, I have a digital SLR camera with a tripod and macro lens that should be capable of taking some decent images.

I don't have a scale capable of weighing a slabbed coin with any meaningful degree of accuracy. On their website, Atlas Numismatics states the coin's weight as 11.16 grams. Perhaps the coin was weighed by Atlas prior to being sent to PCGS?

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4 hours ago, Bernie said:

The picture of the coin indicates the coin is a beauty ! Well done. Spink pictures have been generally quite poor. I think the coin will more than likely resemble the PCGS picture. When you receive the coin would you please weigh it, including its slab, so that we can attempt to work out the weight of the coin please.

Are you thinking it might possibly be an F5 rather than an F4, Bernie?

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11 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

Are you thinking it might possibly be an F5 rather than an F4, Bernie?

That would need to be close to 14g if you use the criteria adopted by Freeman. They must have weighed it to quote that figure.

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Yes, although much the same could be said about purchase from anywhere I suppose. I have taken a stab at a few from the continent and been burned a couple of times but done much better on several (including a 1939 proof penny not identified as such and a COPPER NICKEL 1946 E Shilling!). You takes your chances; for some reason, and it makes no sense, I just don't care for Atlas. I am sure they are fine I just don't/won't deal with them and not esp. fond of their business practices...

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Guest AtlasNumismatics

Hello everyone!

I just stumbled upon this here so wanted to point out a few things.

-In general we don't comment on the sources of our coins (unless there is an exceptional provenance), as we are a business and prefer to keep our sources proprietary.

-This is the Spink coin. At the time of the auction it was heavily covered in PVC plastic residue from improper storage in a PVC plastic holder. PVC residue must be removed to avoid damage to the coin from hydrochloric acid released by decaying PVC and we did so. This is a standard and non-invasive procedure. 

-We have permission from PCGS to use their images in our listings. Since PCGS (not Atlas Numismatics) took this photograph, there would be no reason for anybody to doctor the image. We do not doctor images.

-We stand behind all our coins and offer a full no-questions-asked return policy for all coins purchased through the mail/post. In addition, we offer free domestic shipping and (thus) would greatly prefer customers to know what the coin actually looks like in hand before ordering. If this coin (or any other coin) doesn't satisfy our client completely we will gladly take it back and issue a full refund.

I'm happy to answer any other questions.

James Ricks, Atlas Numismatics

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11 hours ago, cathrine said:
5 hours ago, AtlasNumismatics said:

I forgot to add that we weighed the coin before submission to PCGS (11.16 grams).

Hi Jack, just curious about what appears to be a nick in the REV field between the 2 Ns in PENNY, it seems to be on the Spink picture but not on the PCGS one. I think PCGS allow the owner of the coin to use their pictures or link them on your website as it gives instructions on their site on how to do so.....

 

Screenshot 2016-11-07 08.35.05.png

Edited by azda

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7 hours ago, Guest AtlasNumismatics said:

-In general we don't comment on the sources of our coins (unless there is an exceptional provenance), as we are a business and prefer to keep our sources proprietary.

Good luck with that! We have some super sleuths on here :).

You have some cracking coins for sale, I often check your stock but your pricing has always made me steer away unfortunately.

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7 hours ago, Guest AtlasNumismatics said:

This is the Spink coin. At the time of the auction it was heavily covered in PVC plastic residue from improper storage in a PVC plastic holder. PVC residue must be removed to avoid damage to the coin from hydrochloric acid released by decaying PVC and we did so. This is a standard and non-invasive procedure. 

James, are you happy to describe how you do this ? I have one or two coins that would benefit from such treatment.

Cheers, Richard

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13 minutes ago, secret santa said:

James, are you happy to describe how you do this ? I have one or two coins that would benefit from such treatment.

Cheers, Richard

 

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17 minutes ago, Nonmortuus said:

Good luck with that! We have some super sleuths on here :).

You have some cracking coins for sale, I often check your stock but your pricing has always made me steer away unfortunately.

Seconded, the coins are always superb however the prices a little too high for my liking. 

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Restoration prices from the PCGS website

 

  • Pricing & Policies 
    • Modern Service (1965 to Date, Maximum value $1,000 per coin): $22 per coin Restoration and Grading fee. 
    • General Submissions: Restoration and Grading Fee is 2% of the value of the coin in its final grade (min. of $30). PCGS will determine all fees once the order is finalized. 
      • $10 Evaluation Fee – If PCGS determines the coin(s) will not benefit from restoration, nor should be restored, the coin(s) can still be submitted for grading. Coins that are not graded will be charged a fee of $10 per coin. For coins that complete the grading process, standard grading fees apply plus the evaluation fee (see submission form cover sheet for grading fee structure).
      • Guarantee Premium Fee – All non-restorable coins submitted for grading, valued above $100,000 per coin, will be charged a 1% Guarantee Premium Fee. The 1% fee is based upon the value of the coin in its final grade. PCGS reserves the right to make the final determination of the coin’s value. 
    • Final cost of the submission cannot be determined until coins have completed the restoration and grading process; consequently, the submission form costs will be estimated using the declared value for each coin. 
    • Only credit cards or established lines of credit will be acceptable forms of payment.
    • Shipping Fees are based upon the number of coins and the declared value. See reverse of submission form for shipping rates. 
    •  
  •  

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13 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Are you thinking it might possibly be an F5 rather than an F4, Bernie?

The weight of this die pairing varies between 9.3 grams and 13.7 grams, where Freeman 4 ends and Freeman 5 starts is debatable. Anyhow the weight of 11.16 grams is over standard weight. Thank you very much for the info.

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If i was to buy a pcgs coin would the fact its been restored be mentioned please.

Not just the Atlas coin as thats up to them,but is it on the label or the description on the website ?.

 

Edited by PWA 1967

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1 hour ago, secret santa said:

James, are you happy to describe how you do this ? I have one or two coins that would benefit from such treatment.

Cheers, Richard

Acetone is fine for PVC residue in my experience. I recently had to use DMSO to remove polyurethane varnish from a coin as acetone did not work for that. Neither affect the coin, but no rubbing of a proof of course. After DMSO I wash in acetone for its much greater volatility and to remove any possible residue. But I have no idea what PGCS use, though the number of suitable organic solvents is limited.

Jerry

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Agreed acetone will get rid of residue from PVC although dont want to go down the acetone route again :)

Its more to do with the coin catherine or anybody else buys .

People pay a premium for a slabbed coin and can understand why....... only my opinion.

Although if a coin has been restored and the buyer is not made aware seems different.

All companies mention/reject cleaned coins although the servive to do it seems contradictory if not mentioned on attribution.

The premium catherine paid would he have been as keen ,but for this thread ?.

We mention cleaning on a coin but not if we did it does not seem right.

Nobody on here washes plates to restore them or preserve them.......cleaning is cleaning :)

Edited by PWA 1967

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On 11/7/2016 at 7:31 AM, azda said:

I forgot to add that we weighed the coin before submission to PCGS (11.16 grams).

How much relevance can we give to a quoted weight of a coin ? I have a cheap Chinese electronic scales which gives a very different reading to a coin that I bought with a quoted weight. I cannot believe that these scales are particularly accurate, especially when they give readings to 2 decimal places of grams. Freeman weighed most of his coins I believe but using what technology ? And if coins weigh differently on every cheap scales, is there any point to weighing them ?

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5 hours ago, secret santa said:

How much relevance can we give to a quoted weight of a coin ? I have a cheap Chinese electronic scales which gives a very different reading to a coin that I bought with a quoted weight. I cannot believe that these scales are particularly accurate, especially when they give readings to 2 decimal places of grams. Freeman weighed most of his coins I believe but using what technology ? And if coins weigh differently on every cheap scales, is there any point to weighing them ?

You can get a pretty good idea of how accurate they are by putting a sovereign on then if you don't have a calibrated weight. All the cheap ones seem to have a cal function these days. Anything to within 0.02 or so ought to be acceptable. Otherwise you go down the lab balance route with a closing door to eliminate draughts and a temperature controlled room. You can't get away from the calibrated reference weight though.

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1 minute ago, secret santa said:

OK - what does a sovereign weigh ? And are they a (pretty) standard weight ?

7.98805 g

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