New reverse type G on an 1861 F20 penny

[terrysoldpennies 691]

Not sure if you think this a significant variation , but well here it is .             pic 1, Top - P in PENNY points to the gap as on almost all G types.    Bottom - P is rotated sharply left, and points almost to the tooth, and it also has the E  rotated slightly to the left.  This is a rare combination 1861 type Freeman 20  2+g [ Gouby  D+g  rated R7 . I have only seen one other on a 2+g but have also seen an example on a F28  5+g  [ Gouby H+g ] .       Terry

[Bronze & Copper Collector 401]

I'll have check my examples of the f-20's when I get home next week, however at quick glance I see the 2 varieties as I referenced them.  A high last 1 in the date and a low last 1 in the date. If all the low last 1's are to the gap and all the high last 1's are to the tooth then we have a very simple method of differentiating between them. Not sure if this is significant or true as I do not have the coins in front of me, but I should have at least 2 or 3 of each variety to check....

I can't speak on the f-28's as I only have the one in my collection, but if I can find images of the 2 that I sold in the past I'll try to compare them....

[terrysoldpennies 691]

16 hours ago, Bronze & Copper Collector said:

I'll have check my examples of the f-20's when I get home next week, however at quick glance I see the 2 varieties as I referenced them.  A high last 1 in the date and a low last 1 in the date. If all the low last 1's are to the gap and all the high last 1's are to the tooth then we have a very simple method of differentiating between them. Not sure if this is significant or true as I do not have the coins in front of me, but I should have at least 2 or 3 of each variety to check....

I can't speak on the f-28's as I only have the one in my collection, but if I can find images of the 2 that I sold in the past I'll try to compare them....

I should add that on all the rev Gs I have look at this left rotation of the P to face the tooth only appears on the 1861s , and not on any other year right through to 1874, but some in 1861 and 1862 have a slight rotation to the right, and a right rotation of the first N in PENNY.  As with this 6+g 1861 below.      Terry

[Bronze & Copper Collector 401]

1861 F-20 LOW last 1 in date - E in PENNY to TOOTH

 

 

 

[Bronze & Copper Collector 401]

1861 F-20 HIGH last 1 in date - E in PENNY to GAP

Specimen 1

 

 

Specimen 2

 

 

 

 

[Bronze & Copper Collector 401]

1861  F-28  E  to GAP

[Bronze & Copper Collector 401]

1861  F-33  E  to GAP   (The only example on an F-33 I have found so far.... still have a few more to check...)

[terrysoldpennies 691]

Its strange the all the rotated letter Ps and Es are all in the word PENNY , with no variation to the E in ONE which as far as I can tell always points to the gap. Also that they are mostly on 1861s with the close 1 in the date.  I wonder whether this was some kind of test series of rev Gs before settling on the P to gap type right through to 1874   Terry

[1949threepence 3,366]

On my recently acquired F28, the P points to a gap. Obviously, there aren't that many available for direct comparison.

A relevant point may be that two mints produced pennies dated 1861, the Royal MInt and the James Watt mint, with the latter eventually producing by far, the vast majority dated 1861. Many varieties already exist for both 1860 and 1861, and who knows how many times the various dies were recut, with minor variations occurring each time. That much is obvious from the often clumsily prepared date numerals, which seem to be differently spaced and not infrequently sloping, at at an angle.  

 

   

[terrysoldpennies 691]

I think you may have something there with different mints, and maybe their quality control varied, but it is strange that all of the Rev Ds seem not to vary from P to tooth and E to gap in PENNY . With this also being a well used die in 1860-61 you might have expected to see differences.   Maybe they were made elsewhere   Terry

[Mr T 169]

On 31/08/2016 at 7:05 AM, terrysoldpennies said:

Not sure if you think this a significant variation , but well here it is .             pic 1, Top - P in PENNY points to the gap as on almost all G types.    Bottom - P is rotated sharply left, and points almost to the tooth, and it also has the E  rotated slightly to the left.  This is a rare combination 1861 type Freeman 20  2+g [ Gouby  D+g  rated R7 . I have only seen one other on a 2+g but have also seen an example on a F28  5+g  [ Gouby H+g ] .       Terry

Is the number of beads on both reverses the same?

[terrysoldpennies 691]

Hi   Mr T , both have 138 teeth on the Rev. and 143 on the Obv. so no difference there , But as Mike suggested they may have been made by different mints , one James Watt and the other the Royal Mint , this may have been an identifier, so as to know which mint manufactured which, later to use the H and KN on coins.   Terry

[Mr T 169]

Thanks Terry.

Not a bad theory with the mint identifier - makes you wonder how the Royal Mint actually did test the output of the other mints when they didn't have something as obvious as a mintmark to denote who struck what.