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The Coinery

CGS v LCGS

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When I first joined this site I met Peter PWA1967 and he told me I should speak my mind on the forum but carefully / thoughtfully does it.

I am probably going to be locked in the virtual "Stocks" for what I am about to write and have Cabbages thrown at me but here goes . . . . .

Being a Yorkshire Man you will know I am careful with my money. Like you I do not like to pay for some thing especially when you are used to receiving it for free.

The old CGS site is now closed, gone and the new site is accessed via the London Coins site and they are still in process of making live some of the smaller, less used facilities.

Yes £99 is a lot of money and I thought long and hard about it before sending my £ 99 to them but this is for a year and breaking that down to £ 8.25p per month it is not an extravagant amount of money when you consider a coffee and a bun from Costa costs over a tenner.

I am passionate about my pennies and as I am a variation collection collector the information held on the new site is very useful to me and whilst the site was off I must admit I missed the ability to access the information held within the site.

Apart from this variation information on the site, being able to view my coin collection in the various lists like denominations or monarchs is pleasing and helps me plan what my next purchase will be. There is always another coin. My Wife calls me a "Coin Addict". Lets not get onto Wives and coins.

One other important point is that as new coins and new variations are discovered they are quick to put these on the site.

I like my coins in their "coffins" or slabs for several reasons: Have you ever dropped a coin and been rewarded with an edge knock or worse ?. I have dropped several slabs on the floor with no damage whatsoever. I also appreciate the fact that in the past I have purchased coins which were labelled "UNC" only to find out later that they were A/UNC or lower. At least with the slabbing you have the grade what it says and should this ever be wrong you have their guarantee of a full market refund.

A cautionary tale is that whilst a slab does float its floatation buoyancy is dependant upon the coin within. I can tell you that half sovereigns DO float in their slabs where as a full sovereign DOES NOT float. I know this as several of my slabs went into the river Ouse from my boat and the floaters we all half sovereigns. For the REAL coin seekers there are several sovereigns in the River Ouse outside the Kings Arms in York !!!

Grading fees are always a topic of conversation. I would like mine done for free but it does cost money for wages, admin and also the slabs, labels and actual grading time. I have previously spoken to two of their graders and they told me its not just have a peek and guess / assess the grade. The year and denomination / monarch is a no brainer - we can all do that. Firstly they have to decide exactly which variation of the denomination for that year it is and also if it is a NEW variation. This can take some time bearing in mind the pressure they are under and the *ollocking they would get if they miss some thing. Then they have to assess the actual grade. They have a benchmark set which I have seen myself and this does help them decide on the grade.

Then the coin goes to the second grader who basically does the same job again and the second grader gives their grade. Now they have two numbered grades, probably, hopefully both the same number. The coin and both graders numbers then go to the final grader who makes the final call upon the grade - A consensus of opinion is made is there is a difference of numbered grades.

Now the coin has to be fitted in the slab, label attached and the UIN info uploaded - All for £ 15.75p. I believe this £ 15.75p covers all coins valued up to £800. I believe the maximum grading charge is £90 at a rate of 2% so that's up to a coin costing £ 4500. If you can afford a coin for £ 4500 then you can whinge about £ 90 . . . .

Also its a business not a Non Profit organisation. How many of us would want to or could afford to work for free ?

Coins that are not British cost a flat fee of £ 15.75p so If you collect other than British coins you will not pay more than £ 15.75p - that is my understanding.

I believe in slabbing. Slabbing is HUGE in America and what happens over there usually happens in England.

To sum up and this is the bottom line:  

We are coin collectors so we buy / trade coins.

Do you want to be able to see ALL your coins in list format with photos ?

Do you want to buy a coin that is exactly the grade / variation you want it to be and if not have the confidence that if it is not you are covered by their guarantee ?

Do you want in depth information about the coins you have, their values and also their variations ?

Do you want to damage your coins when you drop them and you will drop coins ?

Finally and very important buying a slabbed coin is so much easier than buying a raw coin as you know exactly what you are going to get before you part with your money.

I have now put on my Tin Helmet and Bullet Proof Vest and I await the back lash !

 

 

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I think firstly i'm going to mention the valuation, the company formerly known as CGS values their product, the valuations don't appear in any publications, so therefor it's their own opinion which doesn't match the market valuation, how many times have you purchased a CGS coin at say an 85 or so and paid the exact CGS valuation for it?

The next thing from your post is the ability to view graded coins and their valuations within CGS, this was a free service and had run for several years or since conception of the company the bottom line for the change/charge is that Stephen Lockett thinks that people are undermining his other business of London coins by buying/trading their CGS graded coins.

Do i want to see all my coins, this is a curious one, because i take all of my pictures i can see ALL my coins on my macbook anytime i wish without have to pay £99 fee for the privelidge, how can London coins stop you from y=taking your own pictures in a slab and posting it wherever you wish, this point i do find silly, coins can be swapped/traded by the owner of the coin regardless if it's slabbed by CGS/PCGS or NGC, those last 2 companies don't charge you to view their population reports.

I don't think anyone is against anyone paying the fee, after all, it's your cash to throw around anyway you see fit, i just see the whole thing as an attempt to stem a flow that Stephen Lockett saw, the other thing that irks me about the whole thing is that it was supposed to be under new management, but it's still the same people, so i can't understand why the lies......

There is a huge conflict of interest with CGS and LC, they can grade their own coins for sale and slab what and how they see fit and charge you the earth for that, just saying, i've personally nothing against your post or how you spend your money, i'm only interested in coins and that people don't get ripped off (by anyone) or screwed by buying fakes etc....

 

In 10 years that £99 fee would have bought you a nice coin, but by buying into their regime you'll be over a barrel because you'll have so many slabbed by then that'll you'll have to continue even if you don't want to

 

Peace

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Compared to many on this page I am quite a small time collector not having a large disposable income. However my collection is still quite extensive. I collect raw coinage like thousands of other collectors and house them in capsules. I take care when handling my coins and have learned to recognise grade and eye appeal. I enjoy other peoples input and help with my collecting and am learning continuously, as I am sure I will till I stop collecting or more than likely pass on to my kids. 

Surely most collectors still collect this way. I enjoyed using the population reports and the information on the CGS website but think the work ethic they have shown, and to me, the disrespect shown toward their customers in the way they have underhandedly pulled the rug out from everyone. LC and CGS were and still are the same people. The fee is in my opinion a ransom to previous customers and a block to many who would have thought of slabbing in the future.

I will repeat what has been said above, it is everyone's decision how to spend their money. I just know that £99 to me is a major sum. I don't have to be reassured about grading as feel reasonably confident am happy collecting the old fashioned/ more common way. If I need a second opinion I am also happy to ask others. I certainly can't see how buying raw coinage is harder than encased ones. Except for the inflated prices that often come along with the plastic. Its about buying the coin not what its in.

If the worry is dropping them place them in well designed capsules such as Quadrums. Many of the new generation capsules also have anti toning and Verde guarantees. So win win.

Just my opinion

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The choice for people collecting coins is huge. CGS was an option and I dodged this bullet. A few years back at the Midland CGS were displaying the "finest" coins and the majority of dealers I spoke to were taking the Pi55. LCGS IMO will disappear ripping off poor souls.A few on the forum are in deep but I wish they would wake up and smell the coffee. I had hoped one of the US major TPG's were the new owners but alas.

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A few on the forum are in deep............Your making it sound like something terrible has happened :D

I have just woke uip and had a coffee and just going to look through some coins , too see if there are any to send to them ;)

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11 minutes ago, PWA 1967 said:

A few on the forum are in deep............Your making it sound like something terrible has happened :D

I have just woke uip and had a coffee and just going to look through some coins , too see if there are any to send to them ;)

The point is Pete that nothing about their service has changed other than they want another £99 a year to view the coins you already own and have in your hand, as i said, it's an individual choice and not making an argument out of it

I'm also having coffee B)

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Unfortunately for me (yes i am daft) all of my grand daughters collection was stored on there site as dont have the coins to hand.

Lesson learned as over the last week been able to record all the details seperately should i need the information in the future.

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8 minutes ago, PWA 1967 said:

Unfortunately for me (yes i am daft) all of my grand daughters collection was stored on there site as dont have the coins to hand.

Lesson learned as over the last week been able to record all the details seperately should i need the information in the future.

I thought someone was taking the pictures of your coins? I always do my own pictures before deciding if i want to send to PCGS or not because taking a picture through a slab is an absolute pain in the a**e

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The last pictures i had done was about December but i have traded/sold and added some since then.

When the guy came it took him ages to set everything up ,so was waiting untill there were another hundred or so.

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Quite a lot of information has been added to the front page of there site........for anyone who is interested /bothered :D

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Small Clients

If you are a brand new client and have one or two coins for grading or have had less than 30 coins graded by the former CGS the costs will be prohibitive as you will need to submit at least 30 coins (there is a minimum spend of £499 for new grading members payable as an upfront deposit). We are anticipating that agents will soon set up that will supply a service to individuals who have the odd coin to submit. If you fall into the category send us an email and we will notify you when agents have been set up who can provide you a service.

 

 

So people like me who have only had 7 coins graded are still in for the £499 fee/having to slab 30 coins in one go if I want to continue to use lcgs. ?

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10 minutes ago, PWA 1967 said:

Quite a lot of information has been added to the front page of there site........for anyone who is interested /bothered :D

I haven't looked latey, has it anything to do with FEES? B):rolleyes:

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Just looking up CGS online because i still can't get onto their website from my German IP address, it seems they've blocked foreign IPs, anyway i came up with this link through google, seems to smack of double standards from CGS IMO.

Their whole point of them changing things was because people were viewing/using images, seems they've been doing the same thing..:lol:

 

https://taxfreegold.co.uk/cgs-uk.biz.html

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A nice gesture would be to give 4 credits for the £99 outlay. I am trying to think how they could improve their prospects. Pete keep giving away prizes it will lessen your photography outlay. When we do meet up the coffee will be on me and you can twist my arm for a slice of cake.:)

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19 minutes ago, Nonmortuus said:
Small Clients

If you are a brand new client and have one or two coins for grading or have had less than 30 coins graded by the former CGS the costs will be prohibitive as you will need to submit at least 30 coins (there is a minimum spend of £499 for new grading members payable as an upfront deposit). We are anticipating that agents will soon set up that will supply a service to individuals who have the odd coin to submit. If you fall into the category send us an email and we will notify you when agents have been set up who can provide you a service.

 

 

So people like me who have only had 7 coins graded are still in for the £499 fee/having to slab 30 coins in one go if I want to continue to use lcgs. ?

Don't forget the £99 fee for the privilege of viewing them on their website afterwards :ph34r: Didn't they hang Dick Turpin?

Edited by azda
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3 minutes ago, Peter said:

A nice gesture would be to give 4 credits for the £99 outlay. I am trying to think how they could improve their prospects. Pete keep giving away prizes it will lessen your photography outlay. When we do meet up the coffee will be on me and you can twist my arm for a slice of cake.:)

There is still the £499 fee for grading Peter

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Jesus wept. They can do one. For the lads in deep get 1 membership between you all. They are prize lady front bottoms.

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24 minutes ago, Peter said:

Jesus wept. They can do one. For the lads in deep get 1 membership between you all. They are prize lady front bottoms.

That might be a good idea though Peter, a shared membership between those who use their service will reduce the costs, if there's 10 people then its a £60 fee, could be something for some of you to think about

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So LCGS only want to deal with people who have lots of disposable income. £600 min to start dealing with them is absolutely ridiculous. Obviously they do not want to attract the standard coin collector as they deem us as something less and not worth their time. But we can wait till they decide to use a third party so the riff raff can join in, but of course won't be able to look at what we pay for as that is only for the chosen few. How bloody elitist. 

Surely to make themselves a bigger presence in the market place they should be encouraging as many people to use their services as possible. Not out pricing themselves and fencing themselves off from the normal collector. Surely making themselves more accessible would eventually raise the profile and profits and see them become a much more revered and respected coin standard in the market place. Which could be a fantastic thing for British numismatics.

Obviously that is not the case. 

Thanks All

The Peasant Collector

Edited by bhx7

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I have 7 coins with them now and intended to send 10 more in once those came back (before the whole Web site vanishing etc). I envisaged sending maybe 20 to 30 a year but the £600 they want plus the fee per coin means I could buy 1 or 2 nice choice coins for my collection. I liked the idea of cgs slabs as I am new to the hobby, I'm clumsy and I have psariosis so dust is a constant problem for me. Slabbing, I believed, would help me validate my grading and help with the clumsy/dust issues. I already put all my coins in Quadrums to help with 2 of these issues and it looks like this will have to be the way forward.

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I'd toyed with the idea of sending three or four of my higher value Proof crowns to be slabbed, but this looks a non-starter now (I don't want to slab the bulk of my collection).  

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2 hours ago, bhx7 said:

So LCGS only want to deal with people who have lots of disposable income. £600 min to start dealing with them is absolutely ridiculous. Obviously they do not want to attract the standard coin collector as they deem us as something less and not worth their time. But we can wait till they decide to use a third party so the riff raff can join in, but of course won't be able to look at what we pay for as that is only for the chosen few. How bloody elitist. 

Surely to make themselves a bigger presence in the market place they should be encouraging as many people to use their services as possible. Not out pricing themselves and fencing themselves off from the normal collector. Surely making themselves more accessible would eventually raise the profile and profits and see them become a much more revered and respected coin standard in the market place. Which could be a fantastic thing for British numismatics.

Obviously that is not the case. 

Thanks All

The Peasant Collector

So the rif raf can join in...........The peasant collector :lol:

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13 minutes ago, PWA 1967 said:

So the rif raf can join in...........The peasant collector :lol:

Having one of those soap box days Pete. :angry::P

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26 minutes ago, bhx7 said:

Having one of those soap box days Pete. :angry::P

Keep smiling Brian its all good fun B)

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