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The Coinery

CGS v LCGS

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I can understand why collectors want to slab their coins although, personally, I'm an agnostic on the subject. I can also understand why collectors might want a TPG to grade their coins. 

Now, I will admit that I have never really looked into the financials of having coins slabbed and graded. However, I don't understand why anyone would want to have CGS/LCGS slab and grade their coins given that they have no general acceptance in the market other than London Coins auctions and they use a completely different grading scale to other, more established, TPGs. 

Why would anyone use CGS/LCGS rather than NGC or PCGS?

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I have not got a clue ,hopefully though more people will use NGC or PCGS in the future.

So LCGS can get mine done quicker :)

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I went with CGS based on advice on here from those that had used them before, they were percieved to grade more harshly, were perceived to be better on British varieties and they were good value (despite the long lead times) versus ngc and pcgs (£14 ish per coin v £25 ish with the others). I'm still waiting for my coins back but the experience so far has been frustrating mainly due to the complete lack of communication. I really hoped the 'New management' was going to see an overhaul of the customer services. I can live with a 90 day turnaround if there are updates on when your coin is progressing through each stage. The fact pcgs is a 30 day turn around is appealing ☺. I really do hope CGS have a rethink on the intial fees or another British TPG imerges.

Edited by Nonmortuus

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3 minutes ago, Nonmortuus said:

I went with CGS based on advice on here from those that had used them before, they were percieved to grade more harshly, were perceived to be better on British varieties and they were good value (despite the long lead times) versus ngc and pcgs (£14 ish per coin v £25 ish with the others). I'm still waiting for my coins back but the experience so far has been frustrating mainly due to the complete lack of communication. I really hoped the 'New management' was going to see an overhaul of the customer services. I can live with a 90 day turnaround if there are updates on when your coin is progressing through each stage. The fact pcgs is a 30 day turn around is appealing ☺. I really do hope CGS have a rethink on the intial fees or another British TPG imerges.

Unfortunately Paul your coins coincided with the changes....... your coins are updated through the process but you need to be able to log on.

This i agree  does not seem fair and possibly one of the reasons for them using agents in the future.

Coin in progress tells you ,photographed ,grading 1,grading 2,finalising grade,encapsulated and then a mail to say being posted.

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I had a look at NGC prices and, from what I can see, for most of my coins it would cost me $35 + 1% fair market value. So a coin valued at, say, $400 would cost me $39. However, if I join NGC at the Elite level for $299, I get 10% off plus a $150 credit. So, $39 now become $35. That could be worthwhile if, one day, I decide to slab the bulk of my coins.

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2 hours ago, Nonmortuus said:

I went with CGS based on advice on here from those that had used them before, they were percieved to grade more harshly, were perceived to be better on British varieties and they were good value (despite the long lead times) versus ngc and pcgs (£14 ish per coin v £25 ish with the others). I'm still waiting for my coins back but the experience so far has been frustrating mainly due to the complete lack of communication. I really hoped the 'New management' was going to see an overhaul of the customer services. I can live with a 90 day turnaround if there are updates on when your coin is progressing through each stage. The fact pcgs is a 30 day turn around is appealing ☺. I really do hope CGS have a rethink on the intial fees or another British TPG imerges.

PCGS has a 10 day turnaround, not 30, and you can see within 5 days the grade given. You also don't have to pay any extra to view the population report. In order to be able to send your coins in to PCGS you'd have to either become a member or send to London Coin Company, becoming a member at Gold level gets you 4 free gradings, each costing 35 euros, so the fee pays for itself.

Their next grading week in Paris is sometime this month, sending to NGC from the EU will take a 6 week turnaround because they have no grading office in the EU and the coins must be shipped to the US of A

Edited by azda
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2 hours ago, Nonmortuus said:

I went with CGS based on advice on here from those that had used them before, they were percieved to grade more harshly, were perceived to be better on British varieties and they were good value (despite the long lead times) versus ngc and pcgs (£14 ish per coin v £25 ish with the others). I'm still waiting for my coins back but the experience so far has been frustrating mainly due to the complete lack of communication. I really hoped the 'New management' was going to see an overhaul of the customer services. I can live with a 90 day turnaround if there are updates on when your coin is progressing through each stage. The fact pcgs is a 30 day turn around is appealing ☺. I really do hope CGS have a rethink on the intial fees or another British TPG imerges.

I did mention the problems shortly after you'd sent your coins in Paul and the whole CGS problems came too light, wrong place at the wrong time unfortunately. They'll come back eventually, problem is there really isn't any new management, what i think they're trying to do is stem the flow of submissions because they can't cope. How long has it been now?

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I believe about 82 days so as long as I get them back the week commencing the 15th it should meet the 90 days.

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8 hours ago, jaggy said:

Why would anyone use CGS/LCGS rather than NGC or PCGS?

Absolutely stop on ! CGS/LondonConGradingService or whatever there name is now, have acted in an appalling manner IMO to there client base. I hope  for their sakes that they are somehow compensated rather than penalised for the companies failings. 

And for people to still consider using this service baffles me. 

 

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LondonCoinGradingService not LondonConGradingService ;)

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8 hours ago, mhcoins said:

Absolutely stop on ! CGS/LondonConGradingService or whatever there name is now, have acted in an appalling manner IMO to there client base. I hope  for their sakes that they are somehow compensated rather than penalised for the companies failings. 

And for people to still consider using this service baffles me. 

 

Does that mean you are not being an agent for them :o

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10 hours ago, mhcoins said:

Absolutely stop on ! CGS/LondonConGradingService or whatever there name is now, have acted in an appalling manner IMO to there client base. I hope  for their sakes that they are somehow compensated rather than penalised for the companies failings. 

And for people to still consider using this service baffles me. 

 

I think in a nutshell it's UK based

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I know I'm coming into this late in the day.  It's not something that really affects me.  However I do find the whole thing very odd.

Surely, from a marketing point, one of the selling points of a CGS (or NGC, PCGS etc..) entombment is that, should you decide to sell your coin, potential buyers can then find it on the grading service's database, confirm it's the same coin (and have the possibility of inspecting photographs of it) before committing their cash?  Now that is surely impractical, unless you're a dealer.  For a casual occasional buyer, paying £50 to validate a coin seems daft. 

To me, what LCGS seem to have done is made their service much less attractive an option.  If you want a database of coins, you'd surely be better off photographing them yourself.  Protection?  The afore-mentioned Quadrum capsules sound ideal.  Certification and grading?  NGC or PCGS are better known and grade to an internationally understood scale.

Even if their current customers are the loyalest of the loyal, I just don't get how CGS think this is going to be viable.

 

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I have graded over 100 coins with and been appalled by the CGS/LCGS.  Their customer service is shocking, Semra is possibly the rudest 'professional' I have ever known. I have had to send back several coins because they were incorrectly identified and needed to be re-labeled to reflect the actual coin in the holder.

The LCGS do not care about grading or the fact that while the PCGS have graded 30 million to their 40 thousand they should be trying very hard to gain new customers and not alienate the ones they have. They are 100% focused on the London Coins auctions that take place every 3 months and this seems to use all of their staffing capacity  as not a single coin is graded just before, during or just after each auction which leaves a very small window for grading to be achieved.

I really want the LCGS to be half decent but I have given them chance after chance and each time I am left underwhelmed and edging towards the PCGS. English coins should be graded by an English grader and I agree with them that the American Mint Scale is not up to the task of grading English coinage but that said...... can the LCGS possibly survive the test of time when they clearly don't give a stuff about retaining business?

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In expect that part of the reason for the loyalty to LCGS is based on the 'started so I'll finish' imperative, the analogy being filling up your Panini stickers album.  

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Has anyone used CGS since the name change etc? I have a few coins I want to slab but PCGS are expensive for what I want grading. Are the turn around times better? Do the grading standards match up to what they were pre changes? I would welcome any feedback before I decide to join. Higher grade CGS slabbed coins still seem to be selling well on ebay.

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Well if they are going to grade coins like this and give them both the same grade I wouldn't go near them.Both attributed EF60. I can't fathom the vast difference between the grades. Anyone?

 

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That is bad. I've got a few hq pieces i want slabbed myself but unsure as Nomortuus is on who to use. I ain't sending them overseas. Its bloody difficult having seen those images above. 

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Until grading is done by a computerised scan and the images compared via software there will NEVER be any consistency or real accuracy in grades. I know that I could grade the same coin differently if I looked at it 30 minutes apart and I do it for a living. A benchmark set of coins is all well and good but at the end of the day it still comes down to how each grader compares the coin to the benchmark. Just as an aside, who graded the benchmark set that all submissions are now compared against?

The CGS grades seem excessively harsh to me but why would their graders give a flying feck as it's not their investment that they are devaluing? London Coins are now very harsh (as I found when putting the collection to them) but, why would they give a flying feck as it's not their investment they are underselling.......

Would I be happy with that Gothic in a raw state without an EF60 (WTF does that mean?) sticker on it? Hell yes. How would I grade it? Probably A UNC. The Florin looks around the same although I will use the caveat that grading from pics is always prone to +/- at least half a grade error.

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2 hours ago, argentumandcoins said:

Until grading is done by a computerised scan and the images compared via software there will NEVER be any consistency or real accuracy in grades. I know that I could grade the same coin differently if I looked at it 30 minutes apart and I do it for a living. A benchmark set of coins is all well and good but at the end of the day it still comes down to how each grader compares the coin to the benchmark. Just as an aside, who graded the benchmark set that all submissions are now compared against?

The CGS grades seem excessively harsh to me but why would their graders give a flying feck as it's not their investment that they are devaluing? London Coins are now very harsh (as I found when putting the collection to them) but, why would they give a flying feck as it's not their investment they are underselling.......

Would I be happy with that Gothic in a raw state without an EF60 (WTF does that mean?) sticker on it? Hell yes. How would I grade it? Probably A UNC. The Florin looks around the same although I will use the caveat that grading from pics is always prone to +/- at least half a grade error.

But they have 3 graders that have to come to an agreement. Surely they all can't be blind lol. If you look on london coin auctions at the slabbed CGS coins that are graded 75 and 78 some of them are not even as good as the two above . I totally agree that their grading criteria is very harsh. After all we have people who wrote books on grading. If you were to apply the british grading standards we would be at the same point the USA TPG V CGS cross over is. And who is it that made them God almighty in the grading world. Obviously if they can't get it right then they should go by the book and leave well alone. Or maybe they only grade coins they bought raw to sell higher?

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And furthermore  Do you not think it is a conflict of interest to be 1. The auction house that sells the coins (also means gets to see every lot to cherry pick if desired) Not saying that is the case though. 2. To also be the sole grading house for the UK. 3 To actively sell the same coins your grading as a business venture. There is some sticky ground that could be open to abuse. Coins could be under graded As they sell for profit. If a similar coin is available by a 3rd party at a higher grade it means they won't sell theirs. Again I am being devils advocate I would hope they are honest johns. But this day and age nothing surprises me. :)

Edited by zookeeperz

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1 minute ago, zookeeperz said:

And furthermore  Do you not think it is a conflict of interest to be 1. The auction house that sells the coins (also means gets to see every lot to cherry pick if desired) Not saying that is the case though. 2. To also be the sole grading house for the UK. 3 To actively sell the same coins your grading as a business venture. There is some sticky ground that could be open to abuse. Coins could be under graded As they sell for profit. If a similar coin is available by a 3rd party at a higher grade it means they won't sell theirs. Again I am being devils advocate I would hope they are honest johns. But this day and age nothing surprises me. :)

You make a good point. There is a potential conflict of interest between LCGS and London Coins. This is exacerbated by the reality that slabbed coins do tend to sell at a premium to unslabbed.

In my own, albeit limited, experience, LCGS does tend to overgrade its coins by a couple of points when compared to the US grading organisations. Thus an LCGS 80 which is meant to map as a MS63, is more likely to come out as an MS60 or MS61.

There is always chatter about all the grading organisations, about mistakes they make, about conflict of interest and overgrading. The only way around this is to buy the coin and not the grade. I have seen questionable grades and I have been known to break coins out of their slab and have them regraded. For example, I found an MS65 1887 R over V sixpence which had been misattributed by PCGS as a shilling and where they had missed the R over V. I broke it out of its slab, sent it to NGC where they gave it the correct attribution with the R over V and graded it MS66; result!

Grading organisations are fallible like anything else. Ultimately, it is up to us as collectors to know our field of interest and know how to grade.

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I will hide under my rock (peter is the rock) I've never sent diddly to a TPG who know much less than I do...unbelievable why or how they exist....People need a pat on the back I suppose.I won't ever entertain these shysters...much rather put a coin up on Predecimal when at least you have some sharp eyed knowledge.Back to my chow main had a bit of a bonus this afternoon...the Gees came in:) I'm not just a coinie.

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On 10 October 2017 at 6:32 PM, Peter said:

Back to my chow main had a bit of a bonus this afternoon...the Gees came in:) I'm not just a coinie.

I don't know - I could certainly use 2000 Guineas :lol: 

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If you are grading coins for yourself or just to sell locally then of course getting them graded here in the UK. But if you have valuable coins and would want to one day collect the rewards of your investment. One should clearly use NGC or PCGS. The world market and auction all acknowledge NGC & PCGS. If you look at auction prices alone they command much more at the fall of the hammer.

If I buy a LCGS I will downgrade it myself by at least two grades and only pay the lower price, then get them graded again by NGC. I am often correct and receive them back from NGC with a lower grade. On one occasion NGC called it cleaned. LCGS missed it!

 A high value coin collector will NOT take the LCGS grades seriously. 

However I have managed to steal some great bargains on higher value coins, simply because others do not trust the LCGS grade and won't fight for them at auction. Then I get them graded by NGC, yes lower grade but still a large profit if I was going to sell.

 

Edited by markflorida
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