1934 Wreath Crown Fake or Genuine

[1934 Wreath Crown 11]

No, unfortunately not in the UK. I'm living in Dubai so its rather difficult getting the coin out for further verification as there is a restriction on the movement of coins and 'currency' via post. I could courier it out but am waiting to hear what Heritage have to say about it first. Many thanks everyone.

[coinkat 21]

Just to share a few thoughts on this-

The guarantee of authenticity is part of the bargain of getting the coin graded. So should the coin not be genuine, NGC seems to be the party that Heritage and the consignor will direct you to in an effort to resolve any dispute.

I agree that the has a look about it that creates questions- In part that combination just may be exacerbated by the image and even by honest wear. 

Wreath coins have been counterfeited for decades. And the best ones were actually done 50-65 years ago. My point is that I tend to doubt that this was done in recent years in the event this does turn out to be a counterfeit. I would much rather see the coin in hand before even offering an opinion.

It is absolutely essential that you leave the coin in the slab- do not remove it under any circumstances.

[azda 973]

This if the one vicky silver has

 

[azda 973]

The OBV

 

[1934 Wreath Crown 11]

Thanks for all the input. I have already written to Sam Spiegel at Heritage and will wait for his initial response before seeking further advice from you all.

And I totally agree....the coin stays in the holder under all circumstances otherwise we cannot apportion responsibility to anyone. Cheers.

[mrbadexample 985]

1 minute ago, 1934 Wreath Crown said:

Thanks for all the input. I have already written to Sam Spiegel at Heritage and will wait for his initial response before seeking further advice from you all.

And I totally agree....the coin stays in the holder under all circumstances otherwise we cannot apportion responsibility to anyone. Cheers.

Good luck mate, hope you get this satisfactorily resolved whether verified as genuine or refunded.

 

[1934 Wreath Crown 11]

Will post the final conclusion here. Either I will be the happy owner of a genuine 1934  or we will all have learnt something about being able to fool even TPGs.

[1934 Wreath Crown 11]

BTW how do I get in touch with Mr. Hill at Baldwins and will he entertain a query from me, a complete stranger??

[VickySilver 775]

The site is www.baldwin.co.uk    He should be able to be reached through there. He was at Spink for a long, long time. There also is (but he is harder to reach) Mark Rasmussen at www.rascoins.co.uk

 

PS - That is my coin & the obverse looks like the coin was dragged on the street, not quite as bad in person - so I say, LOL!

 

Edited May 21, 2016 by VickySilver

[Rob 3,000]

There is also the RM museum. They may still have the original dies to compare. It would take a while to hear back from them.

[azda 973]

Vicky who was it that initially raised the concern on the other forum, I thought you mentioned here that it was Mr Hill from Baldwims, if that's the case then he may be interested in helping this along if he had the coin, surely then if someone of his stature in the coin community were to write a note to say it was a fake then Heritage and NGC would have no leg to stand on. 

[Paulus 1,942]

Whereabouts are you @1934 Wreath Crown?

[azda 973]

11 minutes ago, Paulus said:

Whereabouts are you @1934 Wreath Crown?

Dubai

[Paulus 1,942]

Ah yes, read that and forgot!

[VickySilver 775]

No, not him I don't believe as to the best of my knowledge he does not write on any coin forums. I concur that his or Mark R.'s opinion would certainly trump anybody's at Heritage, NGC or PCGS.  I might be able to forward the pictures to him though.

[1934 Wreath Crown 11]

Just to let you all know that I have heard back from Heritage. They have suggested that I return the coin for review and then they will consider their next cause of action and possible refund from them or NGC if the coin does not pass the test. 

I have suggested that I request Mr Hill to first look at the scans and if he expresses any serious concerns about the authenticity of the coin, I would return it to Heritage for review. I'm glad I got such a quick and positive response from Sam Spiegel and feel we are moving forward. My thanks to all for your help and to 7Jags for raising the issue.

[azda 973]

12 hours ago, 1934 Wreath Crown said:

Just to let you all know that I have heard back from Heritage. They have suggested that I return the coin for review and then they will consider their next cause of action and possible refund from them or NGC if the coin does not pass the test. 

I have suggested that I request Mr Hill to first look at the scans and if he expresses any serious concerns about the authenticity of the coin, I would return it to Heritage for review. I'm glad I got such a quick and positive response from Sam Spiegel and feel we are moving forward. My thanks to all for your help and to 7Jags for raising the issue.

The only concern i would have is that if NGC failed to notice the possible fake in the first place then you'd lose all trust in their second viewing. I'd be more insistent that someone who genuinely has more experience with British coins and fakes takes a good look at it, but still its a step in the right direction of peace of mind. Keep us up to date with what's happening

[mhcoins 95]

A further problem with this Heritage / NGC issue, is aren't they owned by the same people ?

[azda 973]

Checking wikipedia ist just says both Are privately owned

[VickySilver 775]

I seem to recall reading that Heritage owned a percentage, possibly as much as 40 of NGC....

[1934 Wreath Crown 11]

On 22 May 2016 at 1:12 PM, azda said:

The only concern i would have is that if NGC failed to notice the possible fake in the first place then you'd lose all trust in their second viewing. I'd be more insistent that someone who genuinely has more experience with British coins and fakes takes a good look at it, but still its a step in the right direction of peace of mind. Keep us up to date with what's happening

Azad I totally accept what you say but I also feel that a company like NGC would not risk their reputation and would come clean IF the coin is not genuine.

Also I just heard back from Steve who admits that one cannot form an opinion on a coin which is in a slab and 'the fact that NGC have graded and already authenticated it is a good sign of it being genuine.'

I will now consider if it is worthwhile to send the coin back to HA for a review.

[azda 973]

About 12-18 months ago another Fake was spotted in a slab, sure it was a Henry VIII groat and cannot remember if it was PCGS or NGC, it was spotted by coinery and The thread will be around here somewhere. The fact it's slabbed should'nt make one complacent and i'd certainly entertain the idea of sending it back if there was any shred of doubt (which there seems to be) but it's your coin and You have to make they'd call, just personally saying that it would continually nag me and you now have The chance to get a little more peace of mind.....

[VickySilver 775]

I also think that Steve will be more reserved than some of us as far as offering opinions on coins not seen directly, but that in-person he may be a bit less conservative. 

As you probably know, most Wreaths, let alone those of 1934 date did not circulate and it is rare to find one in less than EF. However, I have seen a few worn F specimens of the 1934 date, and a couple of VFs & they did not appear as this specimen does. Again, the images from the Cointalk post seem to show a bit better on my computer, with the resolution holding up better under magnification. The surface blemishes are IMO not consistent with wear that I have seen and look to be micro-casting stigmata. I do not pretend to know the latest in counterfeiting measures, but have heard that this is the case with other coins, although I have heard of centrifugal methods but there may be temperature issues with the alloy, etc. and it may be possible that the planchet was cast with a relatively poor strike and then the usual "added" circulation, which again seems to be in a pattern highly unusual in my experience with the 0.500 milled crowns. 

Although it would not be a sole test, certainly you might try one of those XRF surface spectroscopy units to check alloy as well. Of necessity, interpretations offered have to be a bit speculative so I just added a few. I also have concerns about the 100% confidence in a coin that is slabbed, although it may give some reassurance.

 

To reiterate, the observations that have me concerned are:

 

1 - Metal colour

2 - What appear to be surface issues with the metal, especially the field and rims but also the devices

3 - Appearance of the "wear" pattern on this coin with odd colouring, especially again on the high points of the obverse devices

4 - Poor and wrong-appearing strike, especially of the obverse around the ears and the hair just above the nape of the neck, but also other areas in the obverse bust of George V

5 - Other marks about the lettering as was pointed out by another poster.

 

[Coinery 926]

On 23 May 2016 at 11:27 AM, azda said:

About 12-18 months ago another Fake was spotted in a slab, sure it was a Henry VIII groat and cannot remember if it was PCGS or NGC, it was spotted by coinery and The thread will be around here somewhere. The fact it's slabbed should'nt make one complacent and i'd certainly entertain the idea of sending it back if there was any shred of doubt (which there seems to be) but it's your coin and You have to make they'd call, just personally saying that it would continually nag me and you now have The chance to get a little more peace of mind.....

 

[1934 Wreath Crown 11]

7 hours ago, Coinery said:

 

So basically you feel it is a genuine coin???!!! Steve Hill was also leaning towards that opinion but left the final decision to me. Having discussed it with HA and as AZDA said, in the interest of a little more peace of mind, I have decided to send it back to HA and NGC for review and re-evaluation. It will cost me upwards of $200 but well worth it, in my opinion.