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1861 Reverse F Varieties, F19,F24,F27,F32

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I wondered whether any other member had ever attempted a study of the working dies of the very rare 1861 reverse F varieties, Freeman numbers F19, F24, F27 and F32.

The reason for asking this question is that I recently purchased an F24 (pictures attached) because I noticed that the last numeral 1 was wider than I had ever seen before, and also tilted anti-clockwise……again something I hadn’t recalled seeing.

With the benefit of Richard’s excellent websites I decided to examine the dates more closely, as far as was possible with the image quality of some of the coins. This exercise has led me to conclude that there are at least 4 different positions for the last 1, hence at least 4 different working dies. Also, apart from my latest purchase, all of the coins pictured on Richard’s websites seem to have the last numeral 1 tilted clockwise, to a greater or lesser extent.

Perhaps another interesting find is that the two F24’s which are paired with the ‘missing top leaf’ obverse also look as though they may have been struck with the same reverse die as F32 Example 8, the last 1 been very tilted and low in line on all 3 coins…………..although this could I guess be coincidental. This reverse could, however, still have had plenty of life left in it as the obverse moved from Freeman 5 to 6, so I feel very plausible.

Do other members have any thoughts or looked at this before?  

P.S. I have never seen an F19.  Gouby 2009 says 1 known specimen in Fair grade, if anyone has pictures please could you share?

1861 F24 Wide 1 Reverse.jpg

1861 F24 Wide 1 Obverse.jpg

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Here is the F19 in Fair Alfnail.

1.jpg

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Many thanks for the picture. The date on the F19 looks the same as the F24 Examples 3,4,and 7 on Richard's 'rarest pennies' website, the last 1 pointing slightly towards the front of the 4th tooth to the right of the 6

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The Gouby book recommends that there's little point looking at date spacing as far as the pre 1866 pennies are concerned. I have spoken to both Mr Gouby and Mr Freeman and both have said that this is because there are far too many combinations as far as the pre 1866 reverses are concerned. I have also looked at the 5 rev f pennies in my possession of which 3 have normally placed dates. One has narrow date spacing and 1 has a widely spaced date with a lower trailing one (I have attached this pic for you to look at, I would like to highlight however that there are just 13 teeth between the two 1s in my example but 14 in yours). Hope this is of some use.

tlHDWEJ.jpg

 

18611.jpg

Edited by Prax

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That tricked me Prax i have just spent a few minutes comparing both your pictures :o

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Hi Ian,

my F24 is the Elstree specimen which is already on Richards site. I attach a pic of my F32 reverse for info.

Jerry

F32 1861 penny rev.jpg

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Many thanks for additional pictures Prax and Jerry. I was aware of the documented comments about numerous date varieties in the early years of the Bronze penny. Nevertheless with only approx. 30 known reverse F specimens spread across the 4 different paired obverses I still felt it quite interesting to look a bit more closely at the reverse variations. Personally I think more interesting than some of the later date Victorian pennies which can also have numerous date variations.

I expect Richard would like to add Jerry's F32 pictures to his website. 

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how many reverse F's are mixed up with D's?

1024553.jpg

this might be an F but i'm struggling comparing between D

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1 hour ago, scott said:

how many reverse F's are mixed up with D's?

1024553.jpg

this might be an F but i'm struggling comparing between D

Unfortunately not a Rev F it's a Rev D

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8 hours ago, Nordle11 said:

Here is the F19 in Fair Alfnail.

1.jpg

That's what I would call a true rarity. Nice coin Matt.

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6 hours ago, PWA 1967 said:

That tricked me Prax i have just spent a few minutes comparing both your pictures :o

Contagious - and I thought such things happened only with me. Don't know how I managed multiple insertions of the same pic.

Edited by Prax

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2 hours ago, alfnail said:

Many thanks for additional pictures Prax and Jerry. I was aware of the documented comments about numerous date varieties in the early years of the Bronze penny. Nevertheless with only approx. 30 known reverse F specimens spread across the 4 different paired obverses I still felt it quite interesting to look a bit more closely at the reverse variations. Personally I think more interesting than some of the later date Victorian pennies which can also have numerous date variations.

I expect Richard would like to add Jerry's F32 pictures to his website. 

In fact I sent pics to Richard earlier this afternoon.

I think it is interesting to look at the die totals used and die  linkage with these very rare coins, and attempt to relate the results to total known. The relatively common F10 1860 N over N sideways for example seems to be one reverse die paired with two different obverse dies, both with evidence of repair. The new F10 2* obverse seems to occur on two dies, both only found (so far) showing severe cracking.  But it looks as though there were  a greater number of F reverse dies used over the various obverses, but with poor survival to the present. Careful study might reveal a defecit in survival compared to total dies used. Perhaps indicative of the batch of newly minted coinage exported to some far flung corner of the empire? Or dies only ever treated as a trial, and never used for general production? 

Jerry

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Jerry,

What is the difference between the two N/Z Reverses? I have a MS64 and a AU55, but they both look like the same Reverse. Both have a die crack from the edge up through the Shield, and also another from the edge, down thru the N and Y of Penny. Do you have a pic of the Rev 2* ? :)

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Its one reverse and two different obverses, Bob.

Jerry

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Re. the two obverses paired with the single N/Z reverse, they both have a die flaw from the top leaf, but you will notice that they hit the rim at slightly different locations. Also both have interesting but different repairs.

Obverse 1 VICTORIA IA.jpg

Obverse 1 Top Leaf Die Crack.jpg

Obverse 2 Top Leaf Die Crack.jpg

Obverse 2 VICTORIA IA.jpg

Obverse 1 BRITT and REG R.jpg

Obverse 2 BRITT.jpg

Obverse 2 REG R.jpg

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1 hour ago, RLC35 said:

What is the difference between the two N/Z Reverses?

vic-obv-d2-2.jpg?w=568&h=551

Bob you will find the info on Richard's site https://headsntails14.wordpress.com/victoria-bronze-obverses/

There is a difference in the number of teeth but the core is on Obv 2 the A of VICTORIA points to a gap whereas on 2* it points to a tooth.

2 hours ago, jelida said:

The relatively common F10 1860 N over N sideways for example seems to be one reverse die paired with two different obverse dies

Jerry did I miss something there? Does that mean that a N over sideways N 1860 has been spotted with a 2* Obv?

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19 minutes ago, Prax said:

Jerry did I miss something there? Does that mean that a N over sideways N 1860 has been spotted with a 2* Obv?

No, sadly.

I was referring to examples of coins from one or two die pairings, there are many others of course. 

Jerry

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