CGS "membership" Fee

[Paulus 1,942]

9 minutes ago, secret santa said:

CGS appear to have (generally) graded consistently and to a well documented standard in the past so I don't see why people should want to spend more money getting their coins regraded. A coin previously graded by CGS has a mark of authenticity that would still stand for me as a collector. The real problem seems to be the inability to verify that grading without charge in future or to view their library of graded coins. I guess the "Hall of Fame" feature will also bite the dust. I'm certainly glad that I never got any coins graded by them in the past but I don't think that anyone who did should feel that they have wasted their money.

I agree with that SS. It's the proposal that in order to verify a CGS coin you have to be a member, at whatever cost and inconvenience, that will be a barrier to trading in them, whether buying or selling - that's the killer for me.

I'm also interested in Rob's comment, that the number of 'iffy' items is the same in the US as it is here ... I had assumed it was FAR more of an issue over there!

 

[PWA 1967 1,841]

I think maybe i am missing something here.

I sent a coin i paid £xxx for and paid for it to be graded,checked for any problems/faults,put in a plasic box and photographed.

They send it back giving me what i wanted to know and asked for.

I either keep the coin being happy or return /sell it.

Its still the same coin 

If thats cost me £xxxxx over three years feel its better than having a box of coins that may turn out to be worthless in twenty years.

I can take it out or leave it in the slab ,thats ireleavent.

Cant really see any problem ?.

Pete.

[Rob 3,002]

There are Chinese copies everywhere, but the local collectors will be largely aware of what is available, just as we are here. So it boils down to what else is in the market that is likely to get under the radar. There aren't that many things if the truth be known. Some contemporary copies are very collectable in any case. Many modern copies simply look wrong. I also suspect that some coins are rejected in error by the US TPGs.

Coins have always been counterfeited, but anything appearing in large numbers will soon be picked up by the specialists in a particular area and is unlikely to cause the collector a significant problem. In my view, the 'reassurance' offered by a TPG is overkill. For those who think that slabbing allows the casual person to buy a £5K coin without bearing any responsibility, I would say that they would never buy a car without doing a few background checks or taking it for a test drive, nor would they buy carpets or curtains for the house without first doing a colour match.

[Rob 3,002]

Given the fairly small number of CGS slabbed coins extant, is verification via the website really an issue. Does anyone know of a fake CGS slab to date? I'm sure the Chinese could knock one up for you if requested, but unless CGS became accepted across the board, it would not be a worthwhile exercise IMO.

[jaggy 528]

When it comes to grading, whether it be TPGs or auction houses, confidence is everything as are generally accepted standards. Whether we like slabbing or not, the main US TPGs do have the confidence of their market. Sure, they make the odd mistake but the vast majority of times they get it right. And the ability of the investor/collector/dealer/etc. to go on to the TPG site, type in the slab number and get a match is key to establishing confidence.

For me, London Coins, CGS or whoever is doing this has made a couple of serious mistakes. First, they tried to create a slabbing market in the UK where there really was not a lot of demand. Second, they chose to adopt a different grading standard to everyone else. Not for them the American numeric standard or the traditional UK grades. Nope, they had to have their own scale. Third, they are making it hard for the consumer which is restricting the market.

The reason slabbing and TPG works in the USA is because the buyer demands it. If you want to get a good price for your coin then you need to have it slabbed and graded by a TPG.  The buyer has confidence in the TPG because they are independent of the seller, because the grading system is well understood and because the buyer has access to the database to validate the coin.

One gets the impression that London Coins/CGS are only in it for themselves and to make as much money as possible.They are neither looking after the buyer not the seller. And the reason it is not working is because 1) the market is not big enough to make a profit and 2) the market doesn't understand the value proposition. That has led to them making business decisions which undermine the confidence of both buyers and sellers.

[mhcoins 95]

A few interesting comments but what people seem to be forgetting is apart from a small number of UK buyers, CGS isn't a recognised authority on grading. T

Perhaps i'm being a little presumptuous but i cant recall a buyer paying a large fee for a CGS graded coin outside of LCA.

 

[Guest marston59]

If London coins wants to hold and display my coin photos then my membership should be free, The email I received says CGS has ceased trading and closed.

We need a legal adviser to state are rights?

[Nutsaboutcoins 105]

I'm not a lawyer, but I believe the rights to the photograph would either need to have been outlined in the original agreement or it belongs to the photographer/company who took it. If London Coins have bought the rights for the photos from CGS then they have the right to use them, if they haven't, then I believe with the demise of CGS the images become copyright free. Either way London coins can use the images as they wish.

Ian..

[Guest marston59]

On the old cgs submission form it states (The photographic service provides for a digital image of both sides of the coin to be stored indefinitely)

If London coins have the rights to use them then I should also have the right to view on London coins data base for free. 

[RLC35 288]

On 7/27/2016 at 9:24 PM, Paulus said:

Thanks Bob, I'm dead pleased because I dipped my toe into copper for the (almost) first time and I think I did well. Did research and took advice, but pleased for my first biggie! It's an 1854 Penny, and very happy with the grade ... I can grade I think but anything above aUNC (or MS63) is trickier in these! To get CGS 80 (MS64) was a bonus

 

And the Obverse is every bit as good as the Reverse...nice pick!

4 hours ago, mhcoins said:

A few interesting comments but what people seem to be forgetting is apart from a small number of UK buyers, CGS isn't a recognised authority on grading. T

Perhaps i'm being a little presumptuous but i cant recall a buyer paying a large fee for a CGS graded coin outside of LCA.

 

You are right about CGS not being recognized as a authority on grading, in fact if you are selling a coin at Heritage, and it is in a CGS slab, they require you to have it regraded by either NGC, PCGS, or ANACS, before accepting it for sale! 

[azda 973]

7 hours ago, Nutsaboutcoins said:

I'm not a lawyer, but I believe the rights to the photograph would either need to have been outlined in the original agreement or it belongs to the photographer/company who took it. If London Coins have bought the rights for the photos from CGS then they have the right to use them, if they haven't, then I believe with the demise of CGS the images become copyright free. Either way London coins can use the images as they wish.

Ian..

The fact of the matter is, is that CGS and this new LCGS are still the same people, trying to work out why it all changed and saying "under new management" was this so that more money can be fleeced from the collector under the new name. Secondly, the old CGS pictures shouldn't be transferred to the new name as it's now 2 different companies, and so unless you have an agreement with the new company then they shouldn't be able to use your pictures on their website, only under new submissions should it be allowed if you have signed on a new submission form

[supermack 2]

This whole episode made me upset. It leaves a sour taste in the mouth. For those people who were savvy enough to grade their coins with CGS have had a smack in the teeth. I think the relatively small customer base are being bullied.

[DaveG38 385]

My guess is that the relatively small customer base is about to become incredibly small if not non-existent. I only have one GCGS slabbed coin (not by me I hasten to add) and I'm inclined to crack it out anyway, so for me the problem isn't an issue. However, for those with large numbers of such coins the problem might be that the new LCGS fails fairly quickly, and if so, where does that leave all those with their slabbed coins? Not only would the coins not be checkable, but even the company that slabbed them wouldn't exist, probably meaning that the value of the slab (if any in the case of CGS) would be lost, on top of the slabbing fees themselves. If this scenario comes about, it won't be long before a CGS slab becomes a historical curiosity and quickly leaves the collective consciousness of UK collectors. That probably doesn't matter as there doesn't appear to be any premium for CGS slabbed coins anyway, but it would be a very poor deal for anyone with a large collection of coins slabbed by CGS. My advice would be if you want slabbed coins, as of now go to NGS or PCGS and forget LCGS.

[Coppers 57]

Rather than just becoming a historical curiosity, it's entirely possible that CGS slabs could become a collectible in their own right...

link

...on the other hand - I wouldn't count on it. 

[PWA 1967 1,841]

7 hours ago, supermack said:

This whole episode made me upset. It leaves a sour taste in the mouth. For those people who were savvy enough to grade their coins with CGS have had a smack in the teeth. I think the relatively small customer base are being bullied.

Not worth bothering about supermack its not a big deal and things happen.

I sold about thirty to a dealer last year and was happy with what he paid me.

The first thing he did was break them all out,they still have a value of what you paid for them (hopefully)it does not matter what the coin is in .

Just got to move on and remember they are only coins of which you still have 

As far as being bullied of which is a strong word i can understand and dissapointed myself but definately not upset 

Keep smiling.

Pete.

[Sword 1,330]

I wonder what is Bill Pugsley's view on the whole thing ... 

[Paulus 1,942]

13 minutes ago, Sword said:

I wonder what is Bill Pugsley's view on the whole thing ... 

Bill has posted extensively in his Facebook Group 'Coin Grading Services (CGS) Collectors'

[Sword 1,330]

13 minutes ago, Paulus said:

Bill has posted extensively in his Facebook Group 'Coin Grading Services (CGS) Collectors'

Problem is I don't have a Facebook account. 

[azda 973]

26 minutes ago, Sword said:

Problem is I don't have a Facebook account. 

In a nutshell, he's not very happy

[Varietalis 20]

On 7/28/2016 at 10:55 PM, Nick said:

And with the disappearance of CGS, goes with it any notion of any guarantee they offered.

This is a very good point.  The real reasons behind CGS ceasing to trade may well lie in their desire to water down the contractual obligations they had as CGS.  As for the £99, this is clearly a suicidal strategy for CGS/London Coins Grading.  Just compare the success of Facebook, which has always been free, with the failure of Friends Reunited which charged a fee.

[Sword 1,330]

36 minutes ago, Varietalis said:

This is a very good point.  The real reasons behind CGS ceasing to trade may well lie in their desire to water down the contractual obligations they had as CGS.  As for the £99, this is clearly a suicidal strategy for CGS/London Coins Grading.  Just compare the success of Facebook, which has always been free, with the failure of Friends Reunited which charged a fee.

I agree that the "guarantee" is certainly now worthless and charging £99 is going to be fatal to them. 

However, I am just not clear why they had to take the very drastic step of closing CGS and opening LCGS. This is bad business practise and which will result in the loss of credibility. I doubt anyone has successful proved that they have a fake coin in a CGS slab and so their offer of "guarantee" has and probably will not cost them anything. (proving a fake beyond doubt and without removing it from the slab is just so difficult). Massive changes and U-turns with regard to pricing don't necessitate closing it down either. I am also assuming that those people (if any) that have paid them the £499 membership fee have to be refunded.

The only possible reasons I can think of are might be the share holders owing the other 49% of CGS want to pull out. If CGS is then completely own by London Coins, it can no longer be called a TPG. Or perhaps they might now want to grade using Sheldon? 

[Peter 615]

On 7/29/2016 at 11:19 PM, Paulus said:

I agree with that SS. It's the proposal that in order to verify a CGS coin you have to be a member, at whatever cost and inconvenience, that will be a barrier to trading in them, whether buying or selling - that's the killer for me.

I'm also interested in Rob's comment, that the number of 'iffy' items is the same in the US as it is here ... I had assumed it was FAR more of an issue over there!

 

LCA's next auction should prove a tad interesting.

[Guest marston59]

13 hours ago, Peter said:

LCA's next auction should prove a tad interesting.

I have concerns over my coins that CGS have had since May, the company now London coins seem to say you will get them when we want to send them out.

Very poor service, I will not be sending the new company any more coins due to the way they have treated old members.

Are any others waiting for coins to be returned?

[Nonmortuus 848]

Yes I have 9 with them at the moment. I was told I should see them the week commencing the 15th.

[Guest marston59]

5 minutes ago, Nonmortuus said:

Yes I have 9 with them at the moment. I was told I should see them the week commencing the 15th.

I was told the same today,