CGS "membership" Fee

[jaggy 528]

6 hours ago, azda said:

Yes you're right Matt, they do like their slabs, maybe the number on it was the reason

Well, it's at the airport now, i'm tracking it on the fedex site, my jaw dropped when he said 24hrs, it was no 10 euros postage though

DNW shipped my coin by Fedex today (better late than never  ). They are estimating delivery by midnight tomorrow. So lets assume sometime on Thursday. It is still less than 48 hors from London to deepest darkest Arizona.

[azda 973]

8 hours ago, jaggy said:

DNW shipped my coin by Fedex today (better late than never  ). They are estimating delivery by midnight tomorrow. So lets assume sometime on Thursday. It is still less than 48 hors from London to deepest darkest Arizona.

Just checked mine and it's in Memphis TN

[PWA 1967 1,841]

11 hours ago, jaggy said:

Nothing wrong with TPGs and nothing wrong with CGS trying to get into that market. 

The problem with CGS is that they are not independent - or not perceived to be independent - of London Coins. There is an inherent conflict of interest with LC's commercial interests which is of concern to the objective collector or dealer.

The second problem is that they are heavily aligned with London Coins auctions as the primary outlet for sales. I had a look at the last DNW auction and there were 12 coins slabbed by CGS compared to 50 slabbed by NGC and 137 slabbed by PCGS. 

The third problem is that they use a different numerical grading system to NGC or PCGS.

The fourth problem is that they have zero acceptance in the USA which is a huge market.

Collectors buy slabbed coins because they take much of the risk out of buying 'sight unseen' or on the basis of photos. However, that means that they need confidence in the company doing the grading, they need a grading standard which is readily understandable and generally accepted, they need to be able to easily check a coin against the certificate number and they need a market where those coins are readily bought and sold (i.e. liquidity).

I agree that slabbed coins are easier to sell than raw ones. If I choose to sell an NGC slabbed coin then I can pretty much do that anywhere. The same, however, is not true for a CGS coin.

Fortunately Jaggy i am in the Uk and people here happy to buy them.

A nice coin is nice regardless ,all i was saying is people have more confidence to buy.

A few years ago a freind who is a world wide banknote dealer told me i was mad having coins graded and slabbed.

However a few months ago admitted he now has to have bank notes encapsulated to sell in most countries including the UK.

Regardless of who grades them it is a market that will come to England in a much bigger way eventually......... IMO.

[Chingford 166]

There have been, reputedly, over 80 slabbing companies worldwide, some were very short-lived and now gone, but in the case of LCGS I think they can take comfort in that they are continuingly mentioned and compared with the big two, who, it would seem, do well with Heritage Auctions, I sure one or two of our American members could confirm the encouragement and leaning towards encapsulation, especially NGC, when consigning to HA

As for the comparison on numbers, the figures quoted from DNW are comparable to 25% the NGC submission and 10% of the PCGS submission, in a relatively short time, they are showing a growing presence in other Auction Houses as you rightly point out

The UK has always had a different grading system to the USA and LCGS reflect this, they offer a comparison between the two, it is really the reluctance to accept this grading system that holds the US Market back from LCGS encapsulated coins, but in time it will come, I agree with PWA there

 

[jaggy 528]

I have come to the conclusion that third party grading is here to stay and that the market, even in the UK, is gradually beginning to demand that. 

Like I said above, nothing wrong with CGS trying to get into that market. I just think that they have done a rather poor job of so doing. The big two have a dominant market presence in the USA and not just with Heritage. The good dealers provide the certificate number so that the buyer can independently validate that the coin is what it is. At some point, they will expand into the UK and that will kill CGS if they have not established a robust market presence outside of London Coins.

If I were running CGS, I would do three things right away. The first is that I would adopt the US numerical grading system so that there is no confusion for the buyer. The second is that I would make certificate lookup free so that a buyer can independently check the authenticity of a coin. And the third is that I would reduce prices for submissions in order to build market share. That of course will take some capital investment which they may or may not have. 

[jaggy 528]

7 hours ago, azda said:

Just checked mine and it's in Memphis TN

Mine passed through Memphis too. It is now in Phoenix.

[azda 973]

Just now, jaggy said:

Mine passed through Memphis too. It is now in Phoenix.

Mine is at Oakland CA now at 05:58am

[azda 973]

1 hour ago, Chingford said:

There have been, reputedly, over 80 slabbing companies worldwide, some were very short-lived and now gone, but in the case of LCGS I think they can take comfort in that they are continuingly mentioned and compared with the big two, who, it would seem, do well with Heritage Auctions, I sure one or two of our American members could confirm the encouragement and leaning towards encapsulation, especially NGC, when consigning to HA

As for the comparison on numbers, the figures quoted from DNW are comparable to 25% the NGC submission and 10% of the PCGS submission, in a relatively short time, they are showing a growing presence in other Auction Houses as you rightly point out

The UK has always had a different grading system to the USA and LCGS reflect this, they offer a comparison between the two, it is really the reluctance to accept this grading system that holds the US Market back from LCGS encapsulated coins, but in time it will come, I agree with PWA there

 

I think Heritage work somewhat in partnership with NGC as their auctions seem filled with NGC slabs rather than a mix of the big 2

[jaggy 528]

Just now, azda said:

I think Heritage work somewhat in partnership with NGC as their auctions seem filled with NGC slabs rather than a mix of the big 2

They probably recommend NGC for submissions (I don't know, have never submitted a coin there) but I have bought both NGC and PCGS slabbed coins from them. Point is, it doesn't really matter as both NGC and PCGS use the same grading system, have pretty similar grading standards and are generally accepted in the marketplace. So which one you use becomes a question of personal preference.

[jaggy 528]

5 minutes ago, azda said:

Mine is at Oakland CA now at 05:58am

05.47am in Phoenix 

Fedex are expensive but they certainly seem efficient.

[Nordle11 564]

16 minutes ago, jaggy said:

I have come to the conclusion that third party grading is here to stay and that the market, even in the UK, is gradually beginning to demand that. 

Like I said above, nothing wrong with CGS trying to get into that market. I just think that they have done a rather poor job of so doing. The big two have a dominant market presence in the USA and not just with Heritage. The good dealers provide the certificate number so that the buyer can independently validate that the coin is what it is. At some point, they will expand into the UK and that will kill CGS if they have not established a robust market presence outside of London Coins.

If I were running CGS, I would do three things right away. The first is that I would adopt the US numerical grading system so that there is no confusion for the buyer. The second is that I would make certificate lookup free so that a buyer can independently check the authenticity of a coin. And the third is that I would reduce prices for submissions in order to build market share. That of course will take some capital investment which they may or may not have. 

Cannot agree more with that statement, it's a bit difficult to break into a market while effectively shutting yourself out to non-paying members. The business they will get from making that service free will absolutely counter the loss they take from having their members use it to sell their own coins (which is why I assume they made this a chargeable service).

I found the lookup excellent and used it almost daily, but due to the change to paid only service (sans any information/notice) and some questionable practices at LCA that I've seen over the years, I don't want to pay for the service out of principal.

[jaggy 528]

1 minute ago, Nordle11 said:

Cannot agree more with that statement, it's a bit difficult to break into a market while effectively shutting yourself out to non-paying members. The business they will get from making that service free will absolutely counter the loss they take from having their members use it to sell their own coins (which is why I assume they made this a chargeable service).

I found the lookup excellent and used it almost daily, but due to the change to paid only service (sans any information/notice) and some questionable practices at LCA that I've seen over the years, I don't want to pay for the service out of principal.

It is coin buyers that drive the business. If buyers demand authentication, grading and slabbing and are willing to pay a premium for that then sellers - both individuals and dealers - are effectively forced to play along. You make it easy for the buyers and you make your money from sellers.

[Nordle11 564]

4 minutes ago, jaggy said:

It is coin buyers that drive the business. If buyers demand authentication, grading and slabbing and are willing to pay a premium for that then sellers - both individuals and dealers - are effectively forced to play along. You make it easy for the buyers and you make your money from sellers.

For some reason I can't read this one way or the other, are you agreeing or disagreeing? Long day, sorry 

[Nordle11 564]

I'll assume agreeing, in which case, yes, keeping it free for the buyers to browse potential purchases will keep the sellers slabbing and registering. They wouldn't do bad to create a central location where many sellers come together and buyers can browse their wares through their collections.

[PWA 1967 1,841]

47 minutes ago, jaggy said:

I have come to the conclusion that third party grading is here to stay and that the market, even in the UK, is gradually beginning to demand that. 

Like I said above, nothing wrong with CGS trying to get into that market. I just think that they have done a rather poor job of so doing. The big two have a dominant market presence in the USA and not just with Heritage. The good dealers provide the certificate number so that the buyer can independently validate that the coin is what it is. At some point, they will expand into the UK and that will kill CGS if they have not established a robust market presence outside of London Coins.

If I were running CGS, I would do three things right away. The first is that I would adopt the US numerical grading system so that there is no confusion for the buyer. The second is that I would make certificate lookup free so that a buyer can independently check the authenticity of a coin. And the third is that I would reduce prices for submissions in order to build market share. That of course will take some capital investment which they may or may not have. 

Reduce prices  IF you want to send them and your choice only £15.75.....For three graders, photos ,slab etc...... i think thats cheap.

You dont have to keep the coin logged or look at pictures ....it is what it is 

[jaggy 528]

3 minutes ago, Nordle11 said:

I'll assume agreeing, in which case, yes, keeping it free for the buyers to browse potential purchases will keep the sellers slabbing and registering. They wouldn't do bad to create a central location where many sellers come together and buyers can browse their wares through their collections.

Yes, agreeing.

NGC have an online 'registry' with 'custom' sets and 'competitive' sets where collectors and/or dealers can showcase their coins. From what I have seen of it, some of them clearly use that as an online marketplace. 

[PWA 1967 1,841]

1 minute ago, jaggy said:

Yes, agreeing.

NGC have an online 'registry' with 'custom' sets and 'competitive' sets where collectors and/or dealers can showcase their coins. From what I have seen of it, some of them clearly use that as an online marketplace. 

I think you will find Jaggy the number of UK users on this forum who have looked at that or are bothered is ..........Zero.

[Nordle11 564]

1 minute ago, jaggy said:

Yes, agreeing.

NGC have an online 'registry' with 'custom' sets and 'competitive' sets where collectors and/or dealers can showcase their coins. From what I have seen of it, some of them clearly use that as an online marketplace. 

Yes I've seen and used that before, it's very handy and for rainy days it makes good browsing. This is the sort of thing I think they would work well in if they could offer it for free, that and verification for non-paying members. Don't they also have NGC approved dealers too?

[Nordle11 564]

2 minutes ago, PWA 1967 said:

I think you will find Jaggy the number of UK users on this forum who have looked at that or are bothered is ..........Zero.

LOL hadn't seen this while typing, make that one  

[jaggy 528]

2 minutes ago, PWA 1967 said:

I think you will find Jaggy the number of UK users on this forum who have looked at that or are bothered is ..........Zero.

That may be. But the point is that the business opportunity is there. 

[mhcoins 95]

LCGS / CGS isnt really a third party impartical grading company, it is london coins grading mainly their own and their customers coins.

[jaggy 528]

Just now, mhcoins said:

LCGS / CGS isnt really a third party impartical grading company, it is london coins grading mainly their own and their customers coins.

Yes, and I made that point above. They lack independence.

[Nordle11 564]

1 minute ago, mhcoins said:

LCGS / CGS isnt really a third party impartical grading company, it is london coins grading mainly their own and their customers coins.

That's what Jaggy was getting at with his comment about having presence outside of LCA for slabbing

[Nordle11 564]

Jesus christ I need to check for post updates before submitting my own 

[PWA 1967 1,841]

What is the buisness opportunity ?

The people in the Uk just want nice coins at a sensible price .

Its not rocket science and if that means they pay 5% more they wont lose any sleep.

I.e. dealer says Unc £100......Slabber says unc £105.

Take your pick