EU referendum - in or out?

[Colin G. 147]

They are worrying times.......someone just needs to grab the situation and drive the decision forward.....a leader is what we desperately require...the longer a vacuum remains the more risky the situation becomes.

[Nonmortuus 848]

2 minutes ago, ChKy said:

arrogance might be the consequence of cherry picking.... At least some people think so...

If the EU isn't prepared to have meaningful negotiations, if your voice wont be heard, then why bother trying? Yes of course we want to cherry pick, its in our national interests to do so just as its in Frances national interest to force the move of the EU parliment to Strasbourg every few weeks. The problem facing the EU now is the UK is in no rush to leave until we get the deal we want and the EU have around a 15% budget hole to fill long term. Southern Europe wont fill it for the EU, it can't its bankrupt. Will Denmark? Belgium? France? Germany?

My wife's Grandfather voted out. Why you may ask? His reason went along the lines of "I fought in the War (he served in Europe in 44/45 and then moved to India in 46) to stop the Germans taking over Europe and the politicians have handed it them on a plate."

Now people may or may not agree with him but his reason to vote out was very different to other friends who did.

To reiterate I believe if the EU had held meaningful negotiations with the UK I do not feel we would have voted to leave. Juncker and co brought this on Europe and us.

[jaggy 528]

On a coin related topic, I think I might start paying for my UK purchases in dollars rather than from my UK accounts given the drop in the pound. The 3% premium is looking quite cheap at the moment.

[ChKy 61]

1 hour ago, Nonmortuus said:

If the EU isn't prepared to have meaningful negotiations, if your voice wont be heard, then why bother trying? Yes of course we want to cherry pick, its in our national interests to do so just as its in Frances national interest to force the move of the EU parliment to Strasbourg every few weeks. The problem facing the EU now is the UK is in no rush to leave until we get the deal we want and the EU have around a 15% budget hole to fill long term. Southern Europe wont fill it for the EU, it can't its bankrupt. Will Denmark? Belgium? France? Germany?

My wife's Grandfather voted out. Why you may ask? His reason went along the lines of "I fought in the War (he served in Europe in 44/45 and then moved to India in 46) to stop the Germans taking over Europe and the politicians have handed it them on a plate."

Now people may or may not agree with him but his reason to vote out was very different to other friends who did.

To reiterate I believe if the EU had held meaningful negotiations with the UK I do not feel we would have voted to leave. Juncker and co brought this on Europe and us.

Let me tell you following:

"I fought in the War (he served in Europe in 44/45 and then moved to India in 46) to stop the Germans taking over Europe and the politicians have handed it them on a plate."

That statement is taken from some past times of old people unwilling to accept the future. Your wifes grandfather fought most likely my grandfather. He had to serve in Northern Africa for example. Britons have taken control over Europe and the globe long before Germany appeared as a unified power.

I was born in 1972 and I am son of an immigrant. My father ist Greek, my mother German. I feel neither Greek nor German, adopting the cultural benefits is the goal. Democracy is a Greek invention, I am free to express my oppinion, choose my own education, travel where I want and when I want. I have a EU-passport so i have an EU-citizenship. That is what matters. I do not care about others nationality or religion. You are British citizen? I do not care, as long we can discuss in a civilized matter.

Southern Europe is bankrupt? Well, we all are bunkrupt. How often Britain was bankrupt in history? Haven´t you ever asked yourself about the nature of your money. Think about the FIAT-money you have in your hand and I have in my hand. Think about the impact and consequences of the current money system onto our societies. Take some thoughts about our compound interest system. Who is going to be served first in a compound interest/FIAT money system? Holders of bonds and loans or members of health insurance systems? *rethorical question*

Of course you can blame the EU for common economic/social problems. That is far easier of course, but problems will retain and will not vanish. And let me tell you that many non-UK citizens have the oppinion that the Union negotiated meaningful with the UK for decades. Continental Europeans are tired of British cherry picking and glad that UK will leave, the earlier, the better... I do not say that this is my own oppinion, but many I discussed with told me exactly that: "They shall leave and never come back" That would be unfair to at least 48% of your population of course.

[jaggy 528]

Lots of headless chickens running around at the moment and the pavement is strewn with dummies that have been spat out and toys launched from collective prams.

First things first, this was a non-binding referendum so it is now up to Parliament to take the next steps. That means sorting out the political crisis in both the Conservative and Labour parties.

Then calm heads in government need to start working through how they want things to happen going forward. And calm heads in the EU need to start talking to the UK government as well. There is a lot to be done before Article 50 notice is given.

Some at the EU seems to be in a big hurry for the UK to give notice. That is because they all have elections coming up and are scared shitless of their own Eurosceptics. Others, Juncker to the fore, seem determined to try to punish the UK in a spiteful and vengeful way. Well, screw them. The UK should give notice when it suits the UK and not when it suits them. And until that happens, they need to continue treating the UK as a full EU member, which we are. And, if they don't, we start withholding payments to their budget amongst other measures. 

Time to play hardball.

[ChKy 61]

2 minutes ago, jaggy said:

Lots of headless chickens running around at the moment and the pavement is strewn with dummies that have been spat out and toys launched from collective prams.

First things first, this was a non-binding referendum so it is now up to Parliament to take the next steps. That means sorting out the political crisis in both the Conservative and Labour parties.

Then calm heads in government need to start working through how they want things to happen going forward. And calm heads in the EU need to start talking to the UK government as well. There is a lot to be done before Article 50 notice is given.

Some at the EU seems to be in a big hurry for the UK to give notice. That is because they all have elections coming up and are scared shitless of their own Eurosceptics. Others, Juncker to the fore, seem determined to try to punish the UK in a spiteful and vengeful way. Well, screw them. The UK should give notice when it suits the UK and not when it suits them. And until that happens, they need to continue treating the UK as a full EU member, which we are. And, if they don't, we start withholding payments to their budget amongst other measures. 

Time to play hardball.

The EU is afraid to be blackmailed by the UK. That is the reason for being a hard liner and ask for article 50 at once

[mhcoins 95]

Just now, ChKy said:

The EU is afraid to be blackmailed by the UK. That is the reason for being a hard liner and ask for article 50 at once

 we are hardly in a strong position to blackmail anyone

[jaggy 528]

1 minute ago, ChKy said:

The EU is afraid to be blackmailed by the UK. That is the reason for being a hard liner and ask for article 50 at once

Except that they are not going to get article 50 at once.

Wanting is not getting as I used to tell my children.

[ChKy 61]

1 minute ago, mhcoins said:

 we are hardly in a strong position to blackmail anyone

 

Just now, jaggy said:

Except that they are not going to get article 50 at once.

Wanting is not getting as I used to tell my children.

HÄHÄ... UK will never leave the EU. That is something I am trying to teach you as well People had been made fools once again. You should accept, that it is easy to let 50% of a population vote against own interests as Snowden pointed out...

[jaggy 528]

1 minute ago, ChKy said:

 

HÄHÄ... UK will never leave the EU. That is something I am trying to teach you as well People had been made fools once again. You should accept, that it is easy to let 50% of a population vote against own interests as Snowden pointed out...

My prediction - which I certainly made elsewhere and possibly on here too - is that, sooner or later, the EU is going to come back to the negotiating table. Some more concessions will be made and a second referendum on the basis of those concessions will be held. Britain will vote to Remain and life will go on.

In the meantime, stocks and the pound are looking cheap. Buying opportunity! 

[ChKy 61]

Just now, jaggy said:

My prediction - which I certainly made elsewhere and possibly on here too - is that, sooner or later, the EU is going to come back to the negotiating table. Some more concessions will be made and a second referendum on the basis of those concessions will be held. Britain will vote to Remain and life will go on.

In the meantime, stocks and the pound are looking cheap. Buying opportunity! 

That sounds plausible...

[DaveG38 385]

1 minute ago, mhcoins said:

 we are hardly in a strong position to blackmail anyone

Not entirely true. Firstly, the value of the pound now makes exports cheaper and more competitive, and that might play well for the UK at the expense of EU member state suppliers of goods. Secondly, although Sterling has weakened, the Euro is unlikely to fare well the longer we wait to trigger A50 - Italy has already had to sort one financial crisis out. It won't be long before Greece needs another bailout, let alone what then awaits the parlous state of the German banks and the Med states when things get worse. Then there are other states whose citizens might like a vote as well. With a number of European elections coming along the EU politicians want to get on with this, but that's basically because they want stability and to avoid contagion, not because they want to genuinely sort things out. They also, of course, need to sort out where they will get our contribution from in future.

Put all this together and while the UK position is weaker than it was last week before we voted, its still got quite a bit of leverage there. It's key leverage is over triggering A50. The UK needs time to get its team together, get a new PM in place and to decide what its stance will be, what its red lines are and whatw e might be prepared to give in return. So, no matter how much Juncker stamps his feet, its up to us to decide and we should do so when the time is right for us.

.

[ChKy 61]

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/brexit/nach-dem-brexit-referendum-johnson-co-haben-keinen-plan-14311577.html

[DaveG38 385]

54 minutes ago, ChKy said:

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/brexit/nach-dem-brexit-referendum-johnson-co-haben-keinen-plan-14311577.html

Boris Johnson isn't the government of the UK, nor is he in it, so at this moment anything he says is just his opinion.

[Rob 3,000]

I for one would have voted to stay in the EU if it had remained the trading area we joined in the 1970s. Removal of trade barriers is a good thing, however, it has morphed into a vastly different animal to what most people in this country want.

I think many countries in the EU badly underestimated the feelings in this country that the EU was changing its terms of reference and looking to forge a European superstate, just as this country failed to appreciate the desire for much of western Europe to concoct a political arrangement designed to ensure it would never suffer the ravages of the past 100 years. That is the essential difference between the two parties. My wife always refers to the way that Germans have been on a guilt trip for the past 70 years, but felt that the fall of the Berlin Wall was the start of a new era with positive overtones. I shared that optimism and wish the EU did so too without feeling the need to force the various nations together. That will eventually rebound as it is done without a popular mandate, even if the principle is tacitly accepted at present .

On a personal level, I have long thought it inconceivable with modern communications and information exchange that people would feel the need for large countries to go to war on a recurring basis, people being considerably more educated, less expansionist minded and having considerably more liberal views than seen during the days of empires. Migration, mass travel by air and the exposure of populations to alternative cultures has largely made for vibrant communities embracing the different values. Despite the racism seen on occasions, this is not a reflection of general public opinion in this or other countries. It usually surfaces when there are economic pressures with unemployment being the usual trigger. A population engaged in gainful employment by and large doesn't have issues because they are too busy. There will always be some that don't fit this ideal, but they are fewer than the noisier opponents would imply. For a proxy, you can probably use the numbers that voted for the far right parties in the last general election with a partial allowance from UKIP, but certainly not all their voters.

Both sides need to act in a measured and considerate way for the feeling of the other party because these issues didn't suddenly materialise from some 'big bang' event. We all have to live together in an overpopulated world, locally exacerbated by the fallout from the Middle East. It is the uncontrolled mass movement of populations that provided the backdrop for the leave vote in the east of the country, whereas there have been no recent elections in Europe to gauge voter feeling. This will happen.

Religion, not national politics, is more likely to be the catalyst for future European unrest. However, I remain an optimist.

 

[ChKy 61]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iMah2SrbKo

 

with english sub titles

Edited June 28, 2016 by ChKy

[Nonmortuus 848]

1 hour ago, ChKy said:

Of course you can blame the EU for common economic/social problems. That is far easier of course, but problems will retain and will not vanish. And let me tell you that many non-UK citizens have the oppinion that the Union negotiated meaningful with the UK for decades. Continental Europeans are tired of British cherry picking and glad that UK will leave, the earlier, the better... I do not say that this is my own oppinion, but many I discussed with told me exactly that: "They shall leave and never come back" That would be unfair to at least 48% of your population of course.

You better tell that to Marine Le Pen and Geert Wilders! I honestly believe we would have stayed if we had seen some genuine compromise.

[ChKy 61]

2 minutes ago, Nonmortuus said:

You better tell that to Marine Le Pen and Geert Wilders! I honestly believe we would have stayed if we had seen some genuine compromise.

Marie LePen & Geert Wilders are pure fascists in my point of view. Your PM Chamberlane tried to negotiate a fascist a few decades ago. We all know the outcome. Only common and public education and discussion is the solution.

[brg5658 111]

I thought American politicians were bad -- Nigel Farage is a pompous ass of the first degree.  Absolutely amazing...

 

 

[Flash 23]

What a truly horrible man - him and Johnson, supported by the pathetic weakness of Cameron and Corbyn have ravaged this country. 

Am I the only one with a mortgage and can anyone tell me that I will definitely be in the house we intended to die in this time next year. This time last week it was pretty much a certainty but not now.

 

I don't mean die this time next year in the house, I'm only 40 ish :-) 

Edited June 28, 2016 by Flash

[DaveG38 385]

6 minutes ago, brg5658 said:

I thought American politicians were bad -- Nigel Farage is a pompous ass of the first degree.  Absolutely amazing...

 

 

I like Farage. He certainly tells it like it is. Pity other politicians don't do the same.

[brg5658 111]

8 minutes ago, DaveG38 said:

I like Farage. He certainly tells it like it is. Pity other politicians don't do the same.

Flowery language when the comments you are making are blatant lies isn't exactly what I'd call "telling it like it is"...but, there's no denying the fact that he sure does think highly of himself.  He seems so smug and happy with himself while he tells the EU to go fuck themselves, all the while telling them that they need the UK more than it needs them.  This guy is a textbook psychopath.

Edited June 28, 2016 by brg5658

[ChKy 61]

15 minutes ago, brg5658 said:

I thought American politicians were bad -- Nigel Farage is a pompous ass of the first degree.  Absolutely amazing...

 

 

[...] global ambitions??!!

[Rob 3,000]

The danger is that a number of points raised will be lost in the desire to insult and ridicule from one side and ignore from the other because of the person speaking.

[ChKy 61]

he is a marvelous speaker too... As well a Pied piper, like the gentleman in the previous video...