Jump to content
British Coin Forum - Predecimal.com

50 Years of RotographicCoinpublications.com A Rotographic Imprint. Price guide reference book publishers since 1959. Lots of books on coins, banknotes and medals. Please visit and like Coin Publications on Facebook for offers and updates.

Coin Publications on Facebook

   Rotographic    

The current range of books. Click the image above to see them on Amazon (printed and Kindle format). More info on coinpublications.com

predecimal.comPredecimal.com. One of the most popular websites on British pre-decimal coins, with hundreds of coins for sale, advice for beginners and interesting information.

Recommended Posts

Basically what's everybody else's view. I must admit, I'm still totally undecided. 

There are obviously a number of factors and variables at play, not to mention stuff we cannot easily foresee as knock on effects either way. Especially as they relate to the strength of the economy, trade agreements, net migration etc.

Thoughts?

  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Out

 Had enough of being told what we can and can't do and pay billions out for being in

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In. I'm both an employee and business owner. Being in benefits the business and my employer, one of the worlds largest financial institutions had made it very clear how we will benefit from being in. So it's an easy decision for me. 

 

Whatever happens though, it's very much for the individual to play the hand they have been dealt. 

Edited by Mynki

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Out, because the present system is unworkable operating as it does under disingenuous aims. The objective of ever closer union is at odds with a successful union, because there are 28 countries, each with their own agenda - so a politically unified Europe is not going to happen. It might just have been possible to have a single political unit at the outset with the 6 founding countries, but the time wasn't right. Now it certainly isn't.

This country joined a trading area, designed to ease the flow of goods and services. This is desirable.

What you have now is a group of countries with wildly different economies, but no political structure to ensure that problems are resolved. The poorer Euro countries are nowhere near the economic position of Germany, which in turn is able to sell its goods more easily than it should because the tail is wagging the dog, i.e. their trade should be based on a stronger Euro than it actually has to use. So the physical centre (a bonus in itself) and workhouse of Europe becomes stronger by the day as it is selling too cheaply due to the discontinuities of European economics to the detriment of the periphery.

Unless you can equalise the economies of Europe, the Eurozone is doomed to failure. It is doomed to failure because nobody is willing to cede absolute sovereignty to a group of unelected blokes (and women) in Brussels. The European Community (etc) has been going for over half a century, but nobody dare suggest political and economic union, which is the prerequisite for it to be successful. All have a misguided belief that we are better being closer together without crossing the drawbridge and willingly pulling it up behind themselves.

Basically, I think a unified Europe is probably the right tool for the job if they wish to have a greater voice as an economic force, but the operators are incapable of using it correctly. Therefore, it is better for all if it were to return to the trading area we all joined 40+ years ago. Whether Europe allows that is a different matter, but a reduction in the power of Brussels would benefit most people in the EU, profligate spending being the order of the day. It is too unwieldy to be efficient, or accountable.

This country can stand on its own two feet just as most others could too if they chose. What would be required however, is a change in the mindset of people from today's dependency culture to one of can and must do, which is a moral compass issue at the end of the day.

Edited by Rob
misprunt
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Whichever side of this debate you are on, there are going to be pros and cons. The problem is that there is a lack of hard evidence upon which to base a decision. The key factor is likely to be the economy but nobody can quantify the cost/benefit of being in the EU compared to the cost/benefit of being out of it. Numbers get thrown around but everyone has a different number and one which usually fits their agenda.

The problem in the UK is that most people only want the EU for the economic benefits. They don't want the Euro or Schengen (hence the opt-outs), they don't want 'ever closer union', they are ambivalent on free movement of people, they are concerned about the democratic deficit associated with the EC and the ECJ and they don't really want to give up any more sovereignty. So it is really a question of whether the economic benefits outweigh the other stuff.

Whichever way the UK votes, the EU needs some serious reform if it is going to be fit for purpose over the next 50 years. It is essentially a 1950s and 1960s solution to a 1930s and 1940s problem. It has grown too fast, has become too intrusive and all this without introducing any real democracy. It largely run by appointed officials who lack any democratic oversight or accountability. Right now this suits Germany, France and Benelux because, to a large extent, the EU is run for their benefit. That is unsustainable in the longer term. However, it is going to take an existential threat to force the EU to change. And the imminence of a Brexit might just be the threat it needs.

Edited by jaggy
typo fix

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Out.  Trade without barriers is the only real EU positive, and it will be in both parties interest to negotiate some sort of reciprocal arrangement eventually, as with selective work/travel/habitation agreements. Cost, overregulation, immigration, loss of autonomy and influence as a nation, political and legal imposition we can do without.  

There will of course be winners and losers, but that's what democracy is all about, and I won't loose sleep if the eventual decision goes against my view, though I would then like to see the nation and politicians pull together and kick the issue into touch for a generation .

Jerry

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This country used to "rule the waves" it needs to grow some balls, with the people of 28 (and growing) countries in the EU wanting to get to benefit(land) I mean England

because of how easy it is to get free hand outs,NHS ect ect

The only way to control this "mass migration" is to opt out and close our boarders         

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

:lol:

Edited by Michael-Roo
Removal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We were conned into Europe and now we're being frightened into staying in. Should tell us something? Out, Out, Out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Out. Do we need reasons for doing the right thing?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎05‎/‎03‎/‎2016 at 5:20 PM, George111 said:

This country used to "rule the waves" it needs to grow some balls, with the people of 28 (and growing) countries in the EU wanting to get to benefit(land) I mean England

because of how easy it is to get free hand outs,NHS ect ect

The only way to control this "mass migration" is to opt out and close our boarders         

Oh the UK isn't doing too bad. We're still have the fifth biggest economy in the world despite being a tiny island. Remaining in doesn't mean that there will be a big free for all. You also need to understand that everyone of us is currently benefiting from immigration here in the UK.

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles/1114/051114-economic-impact-EU-immigration

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Mynki said:

Oh the UK isn't doing too bad. We're still have the fifth biggest economy in the world despite being a tiny island. Remaining in doesn't mean that there will be a big free for all. You also need to understand that everyone of us is currently benefiting from immigration here in the UK.

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles/1114/051114-economic-impact-EU-immigration

Interesting read thanks.  I'm still unsure whether to vote in or out, so trying to read up as much as I can. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Mynki said:

Another interesting read. I wonder how much your typical 'Britain First / lets kick em all out 'cos they've taken all our jobs' type contributes?

http://www.cityam.com/213058/eu-immigrants-contribute-463-second-uk-economy

 

People come to this country and are willing to do jobs that some in this country won't do. That is partly what I had in mind when I said a change in mindset is required. If foreigners are willing to do them (even from within the EU), then it should send out a message that it is far too easy and convenient to live off the state in this country. Of course, you don't have to, but many do, and not because the migrants are displacing them but rather because the indigenous pepole are unwilling to work for their living or better themselves. This is a much bigger problem than some will care to admit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Rob said:

People come to this country and are willing to do jobs that some in this country won't do. That is partly what I had in mind when I said a change in mindset is required. If foreigners are willing to do them (even from within the EU), then it should send out a message that it is far too easy and convenient to live off the state in this country. Of course, you don't have to, but many do, and not because the migrants are displacing them but rather because the indigenous pepole are unwilling to work for their living or better themselves. This is a much bigger problem than some will care to admit.

Absolutely. Seasonal agricultural roles in Lincolnshire would be one example where the Poles do the work the locals don't want to do (This has been covered in several TV documentaries where the locals don't want to do this kind of work). Unfortunately they spend very little in the local economy where the UK locals would do, instead they send if back to Poland.

That said, we all benefit with cheaper food prices and cheaper services if immigrants do perform a lot of these menial tasks. Your London hotel room bill would be higher if they didn't employ these people.

Love or loathe the tories at least their 'make work pay' attitude is trying to reverse the benefits are a lifestyle choice mentality created by the Blair / Brown government.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, Mynki said:

Absolutely. Seasonal agricultural roles in Lincolnshire would be one example where the Poles do the work the locals don't want to do (This has been covered in several TV documentaries where the locals don't want to do this kind of work). Unfortunately they spend very little in the local economy where the UK locals would do, instead they send if back to Poland.

That said, we all benefit with cheaper food prices and cheaper services if immigrants do perform a lot of these menial tasks. Your London hotel room bill would be higher if they didn't employ these people.

Love or loathe the tories at least their 'make work pay' attitude is trying to reverse the benefits are a lifestyle choice mentality created by the Blair / Brown government.

I'm afraid it goes back further than this. We are on a second generation of dependency lifestyle which is why it is such an intractable problem. The work ethic cycle was broken when industry started going down the tubes in the 70s and 80s with the large reduction in demand for unskilled labour and the provision of sustainable lifestyles for much greater numbers than before. This is arguably a much bigger problem than whether we are in the EU or out. Productivity worldwide is too high to provide jobs for the population, who are needed purely as consumers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Out.....it is all about decision making and making our elected representatives responsible for their actions, and that is something we currently can not do whilst in Europe. It is a geographical region made up of different cultures, lifestyles, and political parties that all rightly pull for their own interests. This is not what I want for my country where decisions are made that may not necessarily suit us. Whether you believe in an increase in migration or want to control immigration, this is a debate we can have as a nation after we have left the EU and we will actually be able to control the outcome this time, and hold our elected members accountable for the outcome.

I see guidance for construction introduced from Europe, and you can see how a perfectly workable British Standard that was created by a working party with input from interested parties in each in individual field is replaced by a standard that tries to do the same thing across EU but you can see the bureaucratic involvement within. For example all religious buildings are exempt from the energy efficiency requirements, this aspect was introduced by European guidance. The result is that any religious building in the UK does not have to meet the same energy efficiency requirements that all other buildings in the UK would under Building Regulations. They are all exempt from any energy conservation requirements. It is understood this was introduced because of the number of small orthodox churches in Greece and other EU countries..but the guidance has to be applied to all building that fall into the category. We are constantly told that control for Local Authorities needs to be devolved because we are trying to apply Government guidance and that "one size does not fit all" across the country...and yet we are now being told that the exact opposite is beneficial in Europe.

Don't be blinded by the argument that environmental and equality issues were the positive aspect of the EU, as a nation we have always tried to do the right thing and I do believe that if we had not been in the EU we would still have the same moral principles that we do now regarding the environment and equality, in fact we may have been leading the way!!

Finally I find it quite bizarre that we tell the rest of the world how they must sit around the table to negotiate in areas where conflict is present, and then groups of people on both sides of this debate who normally would not politically align on other issues can not stand together on a stage and campaign for what they supposedly believe in for this debate...I think a lot of those involved need to take a good look at themselves. If anyone thinks they are going to get truthful facts on this debate...I would not hold your breath...they are unlikely to surface. My gut instinct tells me that we need to be out and if I am wrong then I will live with the consequences..I just want my politicians to take the same responsibility for their actions like I will and that is achieved by voting out.

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 05/03/2016 at 5:20 PM, George111 said:

This country used to "rule the waves" it needs to grow some balls, with the people of 28 (and growing) countries in the EU wanting to get to benefit(land) I mean England

because of how easy it is to get free hand outs,NHS ect ect

The only way to control this "mass migration" is to opt out and close our boarders         

The fact is that the UK has a Labour shortage from the EU. It's such a shortage that we also have to import labour from other countries outside the EU as well through the Home Office Points Based Immigration System.

In the UK our NHS, hospitality, service, and farming sectors (amongst others) depend on migrants from the EU and the rest of the world. Without them our economy would simply fail.

There are 2.2m UK citizens living and working in other EU countries, and around 2.4m people from other EU countries living and working in the UK. Thats a net difference in the UK of just 200,000 people. Not exactly being over whelmed in the UK with a population of nearly 70 million people are we?

So presumably for the sake of the UK economy they don't want to reduce immigration this way. So what is it they want?

BUT THEY ARE TAKING ALL THE BENEFITS shout the Brexiteers. This is also not the case. For each £1 taken out in welfare and benefit payments by EU migrants they contribute £1.34 to HM Treasury in taxes, not only covering their own welfare costs but contributing to Brits on benefits too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally, i think that the immigration issue is a red herring. All countries can benefit by importing the skills that can't be met internally. Let's face it, on the numismatic front we can go back to the Short Cross coinage of Henry II when Philip Aimer of Tours was brought over to cut the new coinage. J P Droz, Mestrelle, the Roettiers etc. were all brought in to do a job, so immigrants are nothing new - we need them. We just need to be selective. Australia, Canada, the US and many others keep strict controls on immigration, we should be no different

The crux of the issue is that all countries want to be masters of their own destiny, even those that are committed to the EU, which is why there is no clarion call for a politically unified Europe and ultimately that is why it must fail as a project. It can only work if all the countries pull in the same direction without regard to their sovereign interests. Ain't gonna happen.

Edited by Rob
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Rob said:

Personally, i think that the immigration issue is a red herring. All countries can benefit by importing the skills that can't be met internally. Let's face it, on the numismatic front we can go back to the Short Cross coinage of Henry II when Philip Aimer of Tours was brought over to cut the new coinage. J P Droz, Mestrelle, the Roettiers etc. were all brought in to do a job, so immigrants are nothing new - we need them. We just need to be selective. Australia, Canada, the US and many others keep strict controls on immigration, we should be no different

The crux of the issue is that all countries want to be masters of their own destiny, even those that are committed to the EU, which is why there is no clarion call for a politically unified Europe and ultimately that is why it must fail as a project. It can only work if all the countries pull in the same direction without regard to their sovereign interests. Ain't gonna happen.

Couldn't agree more 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, davidrj said:

The fact is that the UK has a Labour shortage from the EU. It's such a shortage that we also have to import labour from other countries outside the EU as well through the Home Office Points Based Immigration System.

In the UK our NHS, hospitality, service, and farming sectors (amongst others) depend on migrants from the EU and the rest of the world. Without them our economy would simply fail.

There are 2.2m UK citizens living and working in other EU countries, and around 2.4m people from other EU countries living and working in the UK. Thats a net difference in the UK of just 200,000 people. Not exactly being over whelmed in the UK with a population of nearly 70 million people are we?

So presumably for the sake of the UK economy they don't want to reduce immigration this way. So what is it they want?

BUT THEY ARE TAKING ALL THE BENEFITS shout the Brexiteers. This is also not the case. For each £1 taken out in welfare and benefit payments by EU migrants they contribute £1.34 to HM Treasury in taxes, not only covering their own welfare costs but contributing to Brits on benefits too.

I admit to knowing insufficient about the issues.  However David makes some very good points.

Daughter dearest went to France and Spain as part of her degree.  In France she not only received EU funding via Erasmus, but French housing benefits to pay the cost of her lodging and a salary from the school she worked at.  She needed no visa to travel in or out of the country, had no problems (other than natural French bureaucracy) with issues such as registering with a doctor.  If we were 'out' I can't imagine that being the case.

I remember holidaying abroad as a kid.  The restrictions on taking Sterling out of the country and the hassle of multiple currencies.  Seems to me that our kids live in a better time with freer access to travel and jobs in Europe.  We live in a world where travel for economic reasons has become commonplace.  This benefits not just those who come to Britain from abroad, but us and our children.   I would be very sorry to see this situation change.

Yes, EU bureaucracy is unwieldy and the power balance unfair.  I'm not saying that changes aren't needed.  But in an increasingly 'global' world, becoming more isolated (whether politically, physically or psychologically) seems to me to be a retrograde step.   Better in with influence than out I reckon.

.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, TomGoodheart said:

Yes, EU bureaucracy is unwieldy and the power balance unfair.  I'm not saying that changes aren't needed.  But in an increasingly 'global' world, becoming more isolated (whether politically, physically or psychologically) seems to me to be a retrograde step.   Better in with influence than out I reckon.

I just get concerned that in 40 years we have progressed to this position, how much time is needed to make these "changes". If we haven't been able to make them by now what chance do we have in the future.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Politics and forums is never a good idea..are we sure we want to head down this route...we end up arguing over whether a coin should be encased in plastic :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Colin G. said:

Politics and forums is never a good idea..are we sure we want to head down this route...we end up arguing over whether a coin should be encased in plastic :lol:

Oh, that's' definitely an "Out, Out, Out!" Colin!

:lol:

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×