EU referendum - in or out?

[jaggy 528]

17 minutes ago, azda said:

So what should this be called?

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3671769/BT-apologises-German-father-two-accused-burden-Britain-engineer-visited-home.html

I don't think you can take one incident - or even a few incidents - and then extrapolate it to represent the whole of British society.

[jaggy 528]

55 minutes ago, ChKy said:

In my view UKIP is a right wing extremist party and the became strong after the last election... I am not really comparing you personally with Hitler. I am comparing political processes. And you have to admit, that people can be directed in a certain way. Especially in difficult economic situations. Here are the informations what happend before Hitler was elected: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weimar_Republic

History is a rich source for predictions.

 

I posted lots of videos and articles in German. Please use tools for translation or ask some German speaker. I beg you to look for more information and outside opinions.

I don't think that Germany's historical guilt over Hitler is a good indicator for what is happening in the UK today.

[Rob 2,998]

Germany needs to stop feeling guilty. There's only a certain amount of contrition that can reasonably be expected.

Lessons have been learnt across the planet, nevertheless, history will repeat itself whether in the name of religion, politics or race - Srebrenica, Cambodia, Rwanda anyone? There will always be social stresses because there is always a section that feels hard done by, so open discussion is the only way to stop resentment becoming an uncontrolled problem as it is far more likely to lead to attempts at defusing the situation. If open discussion exacerbates a problem, then clearly it has not been responsibly discussed nor the situation addressed in the past.

[IanB 175]

1 hour ago, azda said:

So what should this be called?

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3671769/BT-apologises-German-father-two-accused-burden-Britain-engineer-visited-home.html

https://tompride.wordpress.com/2015/12/08/wounded-british-soldier-shuts-up-anti-muslim-racists-with-epic-message/

And what should this be called?

[ChKy 61]

46 minutes ago, jaggy said:

I don't think that Germany's historical guilt over Hitler is a good indicator for what is happening in the UK today.

I do not feel guilty. I was not alive these days, I can not be suspected for that crimes. But it is good to take the own history as a backup for future action. Taking the own history prevents other to point the fingers towards the own argumentation.

 

36 minutes ago, Rob said:

Germany needs to stop feeling guilty. There's only a certain amount of contrition that can reasonably be expected.

Lessons have been learnt across the planet, nevertheless, history will repeat itself whether in the name of religion, politics or race - Srebrenica, Cambodia, Rwanda anyone? There will always be social stresses because there is always a section that feels hard done by, so open discussion is the only way to stop resentment becoming an uncontrolled problem as it is far more likely to lead to attempts at defusing the situation. If open discussion exacerbates a problem, then clearly it has not been responsibly discussed nor the situation addressed in the past.

Historical events have certain dynamics. The times and situations might be different, the behaviour of individuals and populations can be studied and given the human nature, certain reaction in distinct situations can be predicted.

[azda 973]

59 minutes ago, jaggy said:

I don't think you can take one incident - or even a few incidents - and then extrapolate it to represent the whole of British society.

The police have reported a 5% increase in hate crimes since Brexit, so again, what would you call it? Let's see what you say after Trump gets the nod

Edited July 3, 2016 by azda

[ChKy 61]

6 minutes ago, IanB said:

https://tompride.wordpress.com/2015/12/08/wounded-british-soldier-shuts-up-anti-muslim-racists-with-epic-message/

And what should this be called? 

I would call it courage! I am sure you thing the same manner. Still I say "resist the beginnings". As long as such brave individuals are alive we have hope.

[TomGoodheart 373]

Returning the thread a bit to the EU vote, my most serious misgiving is that this is indeed a divided nation.  But not so much the Scots and Northern Irish and the rest.  More our elected politicians and the rest of us. 

If any MP thinks that the public will have more respect or trust in them now they are fooling themselves.  When it's clear that (probably whatever the outcome of the vote was) we need stable, reliable leadership all we have is pettiness and in-fighting. 

Both from the Tories with Michael "I woke up early and decided to run for PM" Gove imagining that polishing off his illustrious political career by stabbing his old friend BJ in the back would earn him Brownie points in the leadership race, and Labour with sulky MPs continuing to try to get rid of a leader who was elected with the largest (membership) mandate ever won by a party leader and whose presence appears to have more than doubled the membership of the party.

Seriously.  I didn't vote Leave, I don't like the result, but it is what it is.  We now need to get to work sorting out the mess to the best advantage of our nation.  And if our politicians can't or won't work towards that, perhaps we should look at deselecting and getting ones that will.

[azda 973]

1 hour ago, Rob said:

Germany needs to stop feeling guilty. There's only a certain amount of contrition that can reasonably be expected.

 

I think they fact they're forever reminded of the past means Germany will always be made to feel guilty. Societies the world over are changing, heritage is being diluted by mixed cultures integrating into different societies yet somehow the UK seems to believe that the UK is for pure breeds only, as i said, lets see what happens if Donald Trump gets elected, just don't wear a sombrero Jaggy.

I just wonder how many people have worked alongside different nationalities at the same time and how those people can get along and work side by side, i work with Bosnians, Serbs, Greeks, Italians, Croatians and Germans, we even talk about the war, no one has a problem  because we are all there to make a living an not hate one another

[Colin G. 147]

Dave, I really think you and CHKY are way off here.......yes the far right might have been given a confidence booster by the leave vote, or it could just be the fact that people are trying to highlight the issue in the media to try and unsettle the decision....in fact it is probably a mix of the two by people on the extremes in both directions.

However I firmly believe that the mainstream public do not have an issue with racism, hold extreme views or believe in staunch Nationalism.

I live in a town where some estates could be perceived as being close to the far right and similarly there are estates where migrant communities have not integrated and isolated themselves from the mainstream community which is a shame. However again a vast majority of the people within this town live side by side with other nationalities without fear or trouble or savaging each other with hatred. Even in those communities that are on the extreme fringes there are no noticeable signs of hatred. The mindless few are getting all the attention and just need to be pushed back in their corners where they belong.

Leaving the EU has nothing to do with racism or maintaining some form of pure British heritage, and the people that keep bringing the discussion down to these levels are really not helping. It is exactly this tone of conversation that risks dividing the communities that are trying to integrate, and makes people feel isolated and frustrated when they can't air their concerns without being called a bigot.

Funnily enough I work in the construction industry and on a daily basis deal with a whole host of Nationalities on those sites and see how tradesmen from all nations seem to work fine side by side without tension, don't believe the hype........we are not that bad.....honest!! 

 

[jaggy 528]

44 minutes ago, azda said:

I think they fact they're forever reminded of the past means Germany will always be made to feel guilty. Societies the world over are changing, heritage is being diluted by mixed cultures integrating into different societies yet somehow the UK seems to believe that the UK is for pure breeds only, as i said, lets see what happens if Donald Trump gets elected, just don't wear a sombrero Jaggy.

I just wonder how many people have worked alongside different nationalities at the same time and how those people can get along and work side by side, i work with Bosnians, Serbs, Greeks, Italians, Croatians and Germans, we even talk about the war, no one has a problem  because we are all there to make a living an not hate one another

I don't think the UK believes the "UK is for pure breeds only". There is concern over immigration because of the scale of it; 350,000 net/year. And that concern really has not been dealt with by politicians. The concern has been exacerbated by Germany unilaterally tearing up the Dublin system to invite around 1,000,000 refugees into the EU and then by the EU demanding that other EU countries admit a quota of those refugees that Germany invited in. In addition, having the French authorities tolerate a camp of would be illegal immigrants in Calais has not improved trust of the EU in this area. Concern over immigration is not racist. It is perfectly legitimate.

In the USA, the issue is not over immigration per se but over illegal immigration of which the USA has twice as much in percentage terms as the UK. The estimate is that there are around 11.4 million illegal immigrants in the USA. Once again, this is an issue that politicians have failed to tackle and which has opened the door wide to Trump's rhetoric.

Shouting 'racism' only serves to shut down discussion. It does not make legitimate issues or concerns go away but it does serve as an entry point for more extreme politicians. What people are hearing from the EU is that "we don't care about your concerns or your issues, do it our way or you will be punished by denying access to the single market".

Edited July 3, 2016 by jaggy

[azda 973]

To get any sort of trade deal with the EU, the U.K. has to accept migration, the assumption that brexit voters had was out of the EU no more migrants, wrong perception.

Alan (MHCOINS) mentioned something the day after the vote about a rally somewhere in England chanting to get the migrants out, so what are we talking if it isn't racism?

Rob, this was a part conversation I had with a schoolfriend of mine, he's a Rangers fan, it was regarding Germany, see attached, like I said, with such narrow minds Germany will not be allowed to forget 

Edited July 3, 2016 by azda

[Rob 2,998]

6 minutes ago, azda said:

Rob, this was a part conversation I had with a schoolfriend of mine, he's a Rangers fan, it was regarding Germany, see attached, like I said, with such narrow minds Germany will not be allowed to forget 

See, now I would have thought a football reference was referring to the 66 World Cup, which they are forever harping on about  (and it's getting boring) and not WW2.

A bit ironic really that the inability to forget about the war is now almost exclusively the preserve of those with no experience. The wife's late uncle was on the Eastern front, my father got out of St. Nazaire, a fortnight after Dunkirk before going to the Far East and being a POW on the railway. They got on like a house on fire when they met. No axes to grind, despite one having half his jaw blown off and the other never being able to walk properly again. They were both happy to forget the past.

 

[TomGoodheart 373]

11 minutes ago, Rob said:

A bit ironic really that the inability to forget about the war is now almost exclusively the preserve of those with no experience. The wife's late uncle was on the Eastern front, my father got out of St. Nazaire, a fortnight after Dunkirk before going to the Far East and being a POW on the railway. They got on like a house on fire when they met. No axes to grind, despite one having half his jaw blown off and the other never being able to walk properly again. They were both happy to forget the past.

 

In the 60's we went on holiday to Austria.  While driving through Germany we parked up at a stop on the Autobahn, this large chap wandered over and inspected the GB plates on our car.

He turned to my Dad and said "You were in war?"  "I was in war"    Reached over to pop the boot of the car next to ours to reveal a case of beer.

"Now we friends" he went on.  "We drink".  And they did.  That was the only time I remember the war being mentioned.

 

Edited July 3, 2016 by TomGoodheart

[mhcoins 95]

5 hours ago, TomGoodheart said:

Both from the Tories with Michael "I woke up early and decided to run for PM" Gove imagining that polishing off his illustrious political career by stabbing his old friend BJ in the back would earn him Brownie points in the leadership race, and Labour with sulky MPs continuing to try to get rid of a leader who was elected with the largest (membership) mandate ever won by a party leader and whose presence appears to have more than doubled the membership of the party.

I agree Corbyn has increased Labour membership numbers, but the majority are these £3 membership people, not real labour members/followers. 

[mhcoins 95]

Also i don't believe all out voters are racist, of course not that would be stupid to presume, however this vote IMO has allowed and given people with these views a platform and lets them think its ok now to be rascist. I have witnessed whether it is on Social media or in the outside world this happening. This minority represent a big cultural issue and in certain areas of this country this will only spread. A friend of mines child was called "Gready Gorilla" at school last week because she eats all her lunch and then the other kid said "my dad voted out go home". This was a 7 year olds conversation. 

[azda 973]

9 hours ago, mhcoins said:

Also i don't believe all out voters are racist, of course not that would be stupid to presume, however this vote IMO has allowed and given people with these views a platform and lets them think its ok now to be rascist. I have witnessed whether it is on Social media or in the outside world this happening. This minority represent a big cultural issue and in certain areas of this country this will only spread. A friend of mines child was called "Gready Gorilla" at school last week because she eats all her lunch and then the other kid said "my dad voted out go home". This was a 7 year olds conversation. 

Now that is a sad story, i'm in agreement that not all Brexit voters are racist or however people wish to label things that are happening in the UK, its a sad state of affairs that we can't live together, side by side and hopefully we can see more of the stories like the ones from Richard and Rob

[azda 973]

15 hours ago, Colin G. said:

Dave, I really think you and CHKY are way off here.......yes the far right might have been given a confidence booster by the leave vote, or it could just be the fact that people are trying to highlight the issue in the media to try and unsettle the decision....in fact it is probably a mix of the two by people on the extremes in both directions.

However I firmly believe that the mainstream public do not have an issue with racism, hold extreme views or believe in staunch Nationalism.

I live in a town where some estates could be perceived as being close to the far right and similarly there are estates where migrant communities have not integrated and isolated themselves from the mainstream community which is a shame. However again a vast majority of the people within this town live side by side with other nationalities without fear or trouble or savaging each other with hatred. Even in those communities that are on the extreme fringes there are no noticeable signs of hatred. The mindless few are getting all the attention and just need to be pushed back in their corners where they belong.

Leaving the EU has nothing to do with racism or maintaining some form of pure British heritage, and the people that keep bringing the discussion down to these levels are really not helping. It is exactly this tone of conversation that risks dividing the communities that are trying to integrate, and makes people feel isolated and frustrated when they can't air their concerns without being called a bigot.

Funnily enough I work in the construction industry and on a daily basis deal with a whole host of Nationalities on those sites and see how tradesmen from all nations seem to work fine side by side without tension, don't believe the hype........we are not that bad.....honest!! 

 

Are they worried about what will happen to their jobs in 2 years?

[ChKy 61]

http://www.n-tv.de/politik/Gabriel-will-Briten-Doppelpass-anbieten-article18101186.html

German Vice Chancellor Sigmar Gabriel suggests to grant dual citizenship to British citizens with residence in remaining EU-countries

 

 

Edited July 4, 2016 by ChKy

[jaggy 528]

Looks like Juncker could be on his way out:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/03/angela-merkel-to-oust-jean-claude-juncker-as-europe-splits-deepe/

https://euobserver.com/institutional/134177

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/685809/EU-referendum-Angela-Merkel-sack-Brussels-chief-Jean-Claude-Juncker-Brexit-gloating

Getting rid of Juncker is the first step towards a negotiated solution.

[Paulus 1,942]

All those links go to this page Jaggy (for me)

[jaggy 528]

20 minutes ago, Paulus said:

All those links go to this page Jaggy (for me)

Sorry about that. I should have tested them before posting. Here they are .....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/03/angela-merkel-to-oust-jean-claude-juncker-as-europe-splits-deepe/

https://euobserver.com/institutional/134177

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/685809/EU-referendum-Angela-Merkel-sack-Brussels-chief-Jean-Claude-Juncker-Brexit-gloating

[ChKy 61]

source: https://twitter.com/SimonZurbrugg/status/746258422765658112/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

Edited July 6, 2016 by ChKy

[ChKy 61]

source: https://twitter.com/goetageblatt/status/746223520506490880/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

[scott 129]

so yea Blair said he made his decision based on facts, because his job is to do so, Cameron takes facts about Britain going down the shitter, loses a vote he can ignore and resigns.. instead of doing his job of making the choice that is best for the country.,