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thats a very good point @scott

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Scott's reply has to be put in the context of what it is - a piece in a left of centre newspaper that is anti-Tory as a matter of principle.

Nobody has ever said this will be easy. If Cameron didn't want the referendum, he shouldn't have allowed it in the manifesto. The simple fact is that a majority have chosen the politically incorrect option. As has been said before, the right outcome for the wrong reasons. Had the gross failings of the EU been highlighted, then they could also have been cited as a good reason for withdrawal. If the EU hadn't operated in the way it does, I could easily have voted in favour of it - except that I never had a chance to vote for it because votes are too democratic.

It's time to cut out the squabbling and move on.

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Interesting how Rob's views mirror part of Mark Mardell's  piece for the BBC, which I've highlighted below:

"As the BBC's first Europe editor, I spent a lot of time thinking about our tricky relationship. After all, in my previous incarnation as a political journalist based at Westminster I had seen how some politicians' profound distaste for the evolving project of the European Union had blown back into British politics with profound and startling consequences.

I had watched as Margaret Thatcher's attitude towards the EU's nascent plans for a single currency, summed up by "no, no, no", had her own side bringing her down. It was the defenestration of a prime minister deeply beloved by most of her party.

I had reported for Newsnight as John Major's government was harried and hamstrung by those who rebelled against the Maastricht treaty. Europe meant it could do nothing. Blair's government was much friendlier, with any tensions buried by his own project.

Now Europe has claimed another scalp, that of a man who told his party to stop banging on about it. It will be the thing that David Cameron is remembered for - banging on about Europe, and losing the argument.

Now I know the European Union is not Europe. But those who stress that are missing the point. No, it is not the same as European culture. No it is not a geographically exact expression. But there are only a couple of European countries who are "out", and firmly intend to stay out. All the others, or at least their leaders, want a share in this deeply political expression of a dream.

By the end of my time based in Brussels I was convinced that I had understood the key difference. To many in the UK being part of the EU was a hard-headed economic relationship, about free markets, selling and buying stuff. It was a sort of second best, a consolation prize after the loss of empire, but not one that had a similar place in patriots' hearts.

But for nearly all the other countries it was a refuge. It was a home they were constructing as a bulwark against history, against horror.

Germany was fleeing its role in spreading death and destruction to every corner of the continent, fleeing its own political ambitions. France was running away from defeat and occupation, from humiliation and powerlessness.

So were many other countries. Greece, Portugal and Spain found refuge - in an imagined future - from the real past of right-wing dictatorships. The countries of the East were replacing communist tyranny with a new attempt to create peace and democracy.

The European Union, for all its bureaucracy, is a deeply romantic project, a desire to forge something new, something different. A new relationship binding nation states in a way that will exorcise forever the ghosts of the inglorious past. "

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Thanks for the link to a good article.

He is certainly right about the view that Europe is seen as a place to do business without any emotional attachment, but I'm not sure about it being a consolation prize following the loss of empire. This is a misconception frequently bandied about on the continent, but the truth is we have moved on and any ideas that we retain imperial ambition is anachronsitic. I'm approaching retirement age and have never known the British Empire. However, the obsession within Europe that Germany still needs to be contained is equally out of date, so perhaps both ideas emanate from the same time warp. I personally would love to see Germany re-establish a 'normal' relationship on equal terms to the other countries without having to check with the political correctness brigade before doing anything.

It is quite interesting from our family perspective to see the UK/EU relationship. My wife is German, but thinks we would be better off outside the EU. She appreciates this country for its individuality and ability to think outside the straightjacket of German conformity . As she has often said - Hitler wouldn't have had a chance in this country because you are too bloody minded as individuals and refuse to conform to anything. Her sister however, thinks that we are the black sheep, because we don't conform and agrees with the principle of all decisions being made centrally without a vote. Our respective views are at odds with each other.

Like many others I thoroughly enjoy going to the continent and taking advantage of the goodies to be found there, but that is leisure and holidays speaking. However, when it comes to a business or a political relationship, then you need not only a set of rules under which to operate, but also some mechanism to change them when required. That's less than 10 words to sum up the main failing of the EU in practical terms.

And so we agree to differ with mainland Europe.

For both sides of the referendum to fully engage with the things this country needs would be a good start.

Edited by Rob

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Yeah, I'm not sure about 'exorcising the ghosts of an inglorious past', but I do think my vote was influenced by the ideals of community, 'greater good' and our having more than just a trading partnership with our neighbours. 

Perhaps unsurprising given I've always felt more European than British due to my parentage.  Dad after all found a new home here, having had his life in Poland turned upside down a few days short of his 21st birthday and Mum was a Scot, though working in London when they met. 

Sure, I'm not unaware of its failings.  But I admit to voting on the basis of (a romantic, perhaps) belief that the EU can be improved.  And to improve it, better from within I reasoned.

Interesting thread.

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2 hours ago, scott said:


When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was "never". When Michael Gove went on and on about "informal negotiations" ... why? why not the formal ones straight away? ... he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.

 

This is from a blog I follow:

Here’s what Boris Johnson wrote back in February

There is only one way to get the change we need, and that is to vote to go, because all EU history shows that they only really listen to a population when it says No.

He may have had in mind the second Irish referendum on the Lisbon treaty which followed after the Irish voted ‘no’ in the first – and secured further concessions from the other Member States.

“Say ‘no’ for a better ‘yes'” isn’t bad as a negotiating ploy. But it’s not much of a campaigning slogan. The Leave camp ditched it for ‘Take Back Control’.

And the rest is recent history.

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yes but this isn't helping the Scotland situation

 

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9 minutes ago, scott said:

yes but this isn't helping the Scotland situation

 

Scotland isn't going anywhere because the fundamental problems that led to a No vote in the referendum have still not been resolved by the SNP.

Edited by jaggy

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14 hours ago, Rob said:

I think too many people are trying to attach the racist tag to anything other than Remain. There are racists in all countries, but they are far exceeded by the average citizen who doesn't ask their political leaning before engaging in any form of discussion.

I personally found the two months leading up to the referendum very depressing, with both sides campaigning negatively. I didn't once hear the Remain camp voice a positive reason for staying in. Lots of forecasts of Armageddon and the end of the world as we know it, be therein lies the rub - the world as we know it wasn't what a lot of people wanted.

In all that time, the only balanced argument I found for remaining in the EU was this article, courtesy of my son which appeared in my inbox the day before voting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USTypBKEd8Y

The populist reason for Out was immigration, but that was really only the main factor in certain areas that have borne the full brunt of it. It is unreasonable to assume that a population going from 0 to 30% immigrants in the space of 15 years (as in the case of Boston and the surrounding area) not to result in some discomfort amongst the indigenous population. That doesn't make them automatic racists. Immigrants can be easily assimilated if the numbers are controlled, as indeed this country has a long history of doing. As I said a couple months ago, I think that immigration was a red herring for the most part as a reason for leaving.

What I found more depressing was that the whole EU setup wasn't highlighted as a reason for leaving, but both ins and outs choose to ignore the fundamentally isolated juggernaut that is the Commission. A body detached from the opinions and influence of the electorate.

I also find depressing the comments of some Europeans who have stated in emails that it is now even more important not to give people a democratic right to judge the EU as it is clear they may not give the correct answer.

As I have said on more than one occasion, the far right and left are much closer to each other than they will ever be to the average man on the street, dedicated as they are to their own particular brand of intolerance. I believe the left and right arms of society converge at the point of suppression of free speech and thought. Vive la difference.

Newsnight's Evan Davis loses it with Brexit leader who makes startling admission 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/newsnights-evan-davis-loses-brexit-8281875#ICID=ios_DailyRecordNewsApp_AppShare_Click_Other

 

it seems that the Brexit vote was about Immigration which we Are now being told it won't ACTUALLY be cut by a brexit vote, wow, this whole thing has just been a tissue of lies by brexit campaigners

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6 hours ago, jaggy said:

Scotland isn't going anywhere because the fundamental problems that led to a No vote in the referendum have still not been resolved by the SNP.

That will be decided by The voters and not a forum member

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As someone who wanted to stay IN...life moves on.

Could be worse Gibraltar as an example who are already having problems.......wanted to stay in as the highest in any vote and will have a lot more aggravation than me.

We will all be ok and keep smiling.......A VOTE IS A VOTE  and the majority win ........ we all have things to think about.

Be lucky.

Pete.

Edited by PWA 1967

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the-truth-about-thomas-the-tank-engine-i

 

There goes the Chunnel.

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Out of Europe twice in a week, a feat that will never be repeated, Dave and Roy should have swapped jobs earlier :D

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Iceland are better than the pundits think, almost won their group, scoring good goals, not free kicks or penalties, and conceding few, could be another Denmark year,

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left following comment

 

People from other countries vote? So what, these votes do not count anyways. But be aware that human beings all over the globe are interested in your nations fate.

You should have considered your vote for exit more precisely. You were entraped by a certain type of Pied Piper. You will realise that soon…

Greetings from Germany (we have experience with Pied Pipers in our past)

 

I am afraid that your nation will become filleted... :mellow::(

Scotlands leaves the Union

major companies leave the country

the British Pound devaluates

devaluation of countries financial standing by rating agencies

your polititians showing inability to handle this issue

...

Edited by ChKy

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41 minutes ago, ChKy said:

left following comment

 

People from other countries vote? So what, these votes do not count anyways.

I am afraid that your nation will become filleted... :mellow::(

Scotlands leaves the Union

major companies leave the country

the British Pound devaluates

devaluation of countries financial standing by rating agencies

your polititians showing inability to handle this issue

...

No .......those votes should not count when the petition is to get a topic discussed in our Parliament, the website clearly states that you should only register a vote if you are a British Citizen with a British postcode. I understand that other people around the globe may be affected by our decisions, but it does not give them the right to interfere with our democratic process and by stirring up such trouble they risk prolonging the uncertainty currently affecting the Nation.

Whether Scotland leaves the union is a decision for Scotland, and it is for their parliament to decide whether that is something they want to do, and I would respect that decision. However I would add they were fully aware that the decision to leave the EU was a UK wide referendum and that a single vote majority would trigger a result that was binding on the whole of the UK.

It was inevitable that when big business supports further globalisation, and were staunch advocates of the remain side that they would continue to drag out the doom afterwards so that they could take the "we told you so" stance. Yes the pound will devalue, and anyone who thought there was not going to be an economic backlash was quite naive. This is not a debate over what is economically in the best interests of the country nor was that the question on the ballot paper.

However where I do agree with you is on the last point, our politicians should be hanging their heads in shame, when we need a decisive way forward, and for parliament to rally behind the result and drive forward the will of the Nation...they are left fighting each other again in power struggles.

 

 

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@Colin G.

Why did you leave out my comment about Pied Pipers? 350 million into the health insurance system? Per week? HA... Pied Pipers, who is going to believe this? UKIP are Pied Pipers, as the AfD in our country.

I have not said, that other EU-members should vote for you. It is obvious that they make a statement instead. And they want you to stay. Foreigners beg you to stay!! Wake up!!!

Again, you should have considered more precisely. You have decided like goatish boys without an overview about the consequences. Your population is divided in two equal fractions. The situation is hostile and dangerous.

 

 

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23 minutes ago, ChKy said:

Again, you should have considered more precisely. You have decided like goatish boys without an overview about the consequences. Your population is divided in two equal fractions. The situation is hostile and dangerous.

If the EU had listened to UK concerns and genuinely offered a compromise and negotiation I do not think we would be where we are now, infact I know a fair few leave voters and they would have all voted remain if it wasn't for the arrogance of Jean-Claude Juncker and co. They voted out as they viewed the EU as a bunch of unelected 'elite' telling the UK to get stuffed. It was nothing to do with imigration for these people but was everything to so with how broken the EU actually is.

Edited by Nonmortuus
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@ChKy apologies on the partial quote, I was originally going to comment back just on the petition, but started to delete it and then got sidetracked :D

I understand and agree that we should listen to the opinions of others, and have no problem with them airing their views, it was the fact that this particular petition website is set up purely to allow topics to be raised by the general public on specific topics that may not normally make it into parliamentary discussion. If an individual can get enough votes behind such a topic it has to be discussed by parliament. Therefore by registering a vote it is it is allowing people to have an influence on our politics who may not be entitled to do so.

I agree that the situation has the potential to become hostile, but I would fight with vigour for us to have that right to choose..even if I may disagree with the outcome of any specific democratic decision...it is in my opinion a fundamental British value. To turn our back on democracy in such a way would be a more dangerous move in my opinion.

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21 minutes ago, Nonmortuus said:

If the EU had listened to UK concerns and genuinely offered a compromise and negotiation I do not think we would be where we are now, infact I know a fair few leave voters and they would have all voted remain if it wasn't for the arrogance of Jean-Claude Juncker and co. They voted out as they viewed the EU as a bunch of unelected 'elite' telling the UK to get stuffed. It was nothing to do with imigration for these people but was everything to so with how broken the EU actually is.

arrogance might be the consequence of (British) cherry picking.... At least some people think so...

   
Edited by ChKy

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8 minutes ago, Colin G. said:

@ChKy apologies on the partial quote, I was originally going to comment back just on the petition, but started to delete it and then got sidetracked :D

I understand and agree that we should listen to the opinions of others, and have no problem with them airing their views, it was the fact that this particular petition website is set up purely to allow topics to be raised by the general public on specific topics that may not normally make it into parliamentary discussion. If an individual can get enough votes behind such a topic it has to be discussed by parliament. Therefore by registering a vote it is it is allowing people to have an influence on our politics who may not be entitled to do so.

I agree that the situation has the potential to become hostile, but I would fight with vigour for us to have that right to choose..even if I may disagree with the outcome of any specific democratic decision...it is in my opinion a fundamental British value. To turn our back on democracy in such a way would be a more dangerous move in my opinion.

well... in case the discussed issue has very high impact, the opposing parties are nearly equal in power or vote and one or both fractions feel betrayed... Then the way to civil war conditions is short :(

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