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This all brings to mind the definition I once read of an optimist...

From: More One Liners, Jokes and Gags 
By Grant Tucker 
London: The Robson Press 
2013 
An optimist is someone who falls off the Empire State Building, and after fifty floors says,’So far so good!’ 

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I quite agree, but society has determined that the age of maturity is 18 and that is where we are at the moment. You are not likely to improve the quality of decision making by reducing the voting age to include those at school, and personally I despair at some older sections of society, but they have their rights.

There will never be a perfect solution and this one is likely to go round in circles. Blackadder's Pitt the Embryo springs to mind.

Edited by Rob

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1 hour ago, scottishmoney said:

Of course there is that particular blowhard over in America who is writhing in delight as he hopes the "anti-establishment" will propel him to the helm in his bid to dissolve NATO, the EU and cozy up to Pootie Poot.  And to think, he can authorise nuclear strikes and other sundry military actions.

If he does order a strike lets hope he can recognise the correct country and hope the city of belguim isn't on the list :ph34r:

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2 hours ago, mhcoins said:

on some grounds you are correct however not everyone votes rationally or sensibly. I'm very fearful that this vote has given a bigger platform for racism. For example I know a Asian gentlemen whose parents were immigrants, he's born here, he was educated here, has become a very successful businessman yet yesterday in Newcastle a group pulled up next to him and said we voted out so fuck off back to your own country.  

Perhaps we should introduce an IQ test for voting, if your IQ is the equivalent of a banana you shouldn't be able to vote

Just goes to show exactly what some morons were actually voting for. Do these idiots think they'll be kicked onto a ferry and deported in 24hrs, these are the dangerous ones who can actually vote. I sometimes despair at society. I've been reading articles today where Poles and others from the EU now feel like they're not welcomed in the UK, nice way to alienate other productive members of society, honestly, some of these people should try living in a foreign country, not all are as racist as i believe the UK is right now

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Ahhh! The racist slur. The weapon of losers.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Geordie582 said:

Ahhh! The racist slur. The weapon of losers.

 

 

 

 

sorry mate but racism shouldn't be acceptable in todays day and age in any form. 

 

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1 hour ago, Geordie582 said:

Ahhh! The racist slur. The weapon of losers.

 

 

 

 

Guess whats happened right now in Newcastle @Geordie582- A EDL march all chanting "Time to go home" Absolutely Disgusting  

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1 hour ago, azda said:

If he does order a strike lets hope he can recognise the correct country and hope the city of belguim isn't on the list :ph34r:

Trump Believes Scotland voted for the Brexit - What a dumbpuck

 

And I love the one tweet:  

Quote

Scotland voted Remain, you weapons-grade plum.

 

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Horrified as I am by the result I can't help but think that this is a good thing for democracy if it teaches people like this that voting is not just about protesting but has consequences;

EU Referendum Man Voted For Leave And Is Now Regretting It

Perhaps the 'Corbyn phenomenon' has led too many to think that all voting does is to let those in power know you aren't happy.  With luck everyone will learn from the experience (including Cameron's successor) and more thought will go into the whole democratic process thing ...  maybe.

 

Edited by TomGoodheart

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3 hours ago, azda said:

Just goes to show exactly what some morons were actually voting for. Do these idiots think they'll be kicked onto a ferry and deported in 24hrs, these are the dangerous ones who can actually vote. I sometimes despair at society. I've been reading articles today where Poles and others from the EU now feel like they're not welcomed in the UK, nice way to alienate other productive members of society, honestly, some of these people should try living in a foreign country, not all are as racist as i believe the UK is right now

I think too many people are trying to attach the racist tag to anything other than Remain. There are racists in all countries, but they are far exceeded by the average citizen who doesn't ask their political leaning before engaging in any form of discussion.

I personally found the two months leading up to the referendum very depressing, with both sides campaigning negatively. I didn't once hear the Remain camp voice a positive reason for staying in. Lots of forecasts of Armageddon and the end of the world as we know it, be therein lies the rub - the world as we know it wasn't what a lot of people wanted.

In all that time, the only balanced argument I found for remaining in the EU was this article, courtesy of my son which appeared in my inbox the day before voting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USTypBKEd8Y

The populist reason for Out was immigration, but that was really only the main factor in certain areas that have borne the full brunt of it. It is unreasonable to assume that a population going from 0 to 30% immigrants in the space of 15 years (as in the case of Boston and the surrounding area) not to result in some discomfort amongst the indigenous population. That doesn't make them automatic racists. Immigrants can be easily assimilated if the numbers are controlled, as indeed this country has a long history of doing. As I said a couple months ago, I think that immigration was a red herring for the most part as a reason for leaving.

What I found more depressing was that the whole EU setup wasn't highlighted as a reason for leaving, but both ins and outs choose to ignore the fundamentally isolated juggernaut that is the Commission. A body detached from the opinions and influence of the electorate.

I also find depressing the comments of some Europeans who have stated in emails that it is now even more important not to give people a democratic right to judge the EU as it is clear they may not give the correct answer.

As I have said on more than one occasion, the far right and left are much closer to each other than they will ever be to the average man on the street, dedicated as they are to their own particular brand of intolerance. I believe the left and right arms of society converge at the point of suppression of free speech and thought. Vive la difference.

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This thread sucks. Squabbles about the outcome of a referendum!!! Out won get used to it, just as we had to when Labour won elections!

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Ah, but you aren't obliged to contribute. ;)

I concur with the way forward. The opportunity to vote has been given and used by those who wanted to do so. Now the work starts.

 

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not all people who voted out are racist, but all racists voted out.

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Just now, mhcoins said:

not all people who voted out are racist, but all racists voted out.

That is likely. Only the numbers are a matter for concern.

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Too many toys being thrown out of the pram by the losers. 

It would appear that democracy is only good when you win.

The result is what it is. Deal with it.

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and counties that voted out want the EU money... seriously.. do people not think.

oh and these fools and their stupid protest votes.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-anger-bregret-leave-voters-protest-vote-thought-uk-stay-in-eu-remain-win-a7102516.html

 

wow petition up to 2 million, was 1 mill this morning

Edited by scott

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If that petition (or the ardent remain MPs that are hoping to initiate a similar 2nd referendum drive within Parliament) come to any fruition then I'm afraid I've lost all faith in this country's democracy. The problem with the establishment and the EU in general in my opinion is that it has a very closed way of thinking, 'think correctly, as we do, or your views are erronous and thus not valid' and then they resort to dirty tactics such as throwing out labels of derision; 'racist', 'sexist' or 'homophobic' or whatever. The EU really comes across as an Orwellian superstate in the making, it's scary how they speak for you and try to change your mind and way of thinking, using every tool at their disposal, including linguistic changes.

I feel an enormous sense of relief that Leave won, but also trepidation that somehow the remain camp will try to alter, delay, stall and try and win the 52% of voters around to their way of thinking over the next two, three or four years. The quicker the cessation is set in motion the happier I will feel. There is the all too real danger of letting the momentum slow over the next two years and stall and then a remain coup attempt to force another referendum or some technical vote to halt the process before completion.

I also feel a little annoyed about the comments in the media about older voters ruining the younger generations future. In actual fact I would consider myself a younger voter and I certainly think it a move in the right direction not the ruining of my and subsequent generations futures. It was a strike for democracy, the right to vote for the MPs directly and not have them overruled by some foreign bureaucrat who you never could have voted for even if you had wanted to. I also feel that finally I have had the chance to vote on this issue, I wasn't born in 1975 when the last referendum was held, so it was finally nice to have my say on an issue that has been a core issue for me for the past twenty years.

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1 hour ago, jaggy said:

Too many toys being thrown out of the pram by the losers. 

It would appear that democracy is only good when you win.

The result is what it is. Deal with it.

Easy to say when it doesn't have a direct effect on yourself.

Sadly this wasn't a vote won by a clear country mile, and as people are free to vote how they wish, i'm am free to view my concerns. You must also remember Virtually half of the voters wanted to remain. Yes we will have to all get on with our lives but there is going to be a horrible few years ahead.

This vote has already and I'm sure will even more so in the future had an atrocious effect on my families livelihood and so many others

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37 minutes ago, mhcoins said:

Easy to say when it doesn't have a direct effect on yourself.

Sadly this wasn't a vote won by a clear country mile, and as people are free to vote how they wish, i'm am free to view my concerns. You must also remember Virtually half of the voters wanted to remain. Yes we will have to all get on with our lives but there is going to be a horrible few years ahead.

This vote has already and I'm sure will even more so in the future had an atrocious effect on my families livelihood and so many others

You would be incorrect in that assumption. 

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I think it's fine to cite democracy.  However it seems pretty clear that some people voted with little understanding.  You could say that happens in any political vote.  But the issue of reducing immigration was one factor in some people's decision to vote to leave and Nigel Evans' claim of "some misunderstanding" about this throws into question whether those voters might have voted differently had they had more information.

There's also the minor issue that the referendum has no legal standing whatsoever.  The government appears to have omitted anything that would force them to act in a particular way when drafting the necessary paperwork.  In fact, in retrospect, the whole thing seems badly drawn up, since setting a percentage of votes for it to be carried either way (as proposed in the new petition) would have silenced some critics.  Yes, the petition (also) carries no legal power.  But it might be difficult for the government to ignore it if the number of signatories reaches 4millon+ as that would represent over 10% of those voting.  No small beer.

So I can see some delays before anything significant happens.   Yes, Cameron said he will invoke Article 50 .. but he's leaving.  And as Remain supporters included MPs from all parties I believe we can expect some lively debate before anything at all happens.  Particularly as there's no evidence that anyone in government made any real plans for what to do if the public voted as they did.  It seems likely it was assumed 'common sense' would prevail and that would be an end to it.

And then there's Scotland.  And Northern Ireland.  And to a lesser extent Gibraltar, London and Birmingham.  All with a majority Remain vote.

So it seems to me as if there is a rather large space.  And for now, all we can do is watch it.  Popcorn anyone?

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9 minutes ago, TomGoodheart said:

I think it's fine to cite democracy.  However it seems pretty clear that some people voted with little understanding.  You could say that happens in any political vote.  But the issue of reducing immigration was one factor in some people's decision to vote to leave and Nigel Evans' claim of "some misunderstanding" about this throws into question whether those voters might have voted differently had they had more information.

There's also the minor issue that the referendum has no legal standing whatsoever.  The government appears to have omitted anything that would force them to act in a particular way when drafting the necessary paperwork.  In fact, in retrospect, the whole thing seems badly drawn up, since setting a percentage of votes for it to be carried either way (as proposed in the new petition) would have silenced some critics.  Yes, the petition (also) carries no legal power.  But it might be difficult for the government to ignore it if the number of signatories reaches 4millon+ as that would represent over 10% of those voting.  No small beer.

So I can see some delays before anything significant happens.   Yes, Cameron said he will invoke Article 50 .. but he's leaving.  And as Remain supporters included MPs from all parties I believe we can expect some lively debate before anything at all happens.  Particularly as there's no evidence that anyone in government made any real plans for what to do if the public voted as they did.  It seems likely it was assumed 'common sense' would prevail and that would be an end to it.

And then there's Scotland.  And Northern Ireland.  And to a lesser extent Gibraltar, London and Birmingham.  All with a majority Remain vote.

So it seems to me as if there is a rather large space.  And for now, all we can do is watch it.  Popcorn anyone?

In my opinion, once the dust has settled and calmer counsels have time to assert themselves, the EU are going to negotiate a revised arrangement with the UK which will both meet some of the concerns that led to a Leave vote while retaining the UK in the EU. There will, in the fullness of time, be a second referendum to vote on that.

This, of course, was the approach taken with both Ireland and Denmark when these countries voted against the prevailing wisdom. So the EU does have form.

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49 minutes ago, jaggy said:

In my opinion, once the dust has settled and calmer counsels have time to assert themselves, the EU are going to negotiate a revised arrangement with the UK which will both meet some of the concerns that led to a Leave vote while retaining the UK in the EU. There will, in the fullness of time, be a second referendum to vote on that.

This, of course, was the approach taken with both Ireland and Denmark when these countries voted against the prevailing wisdom. So the EU does have form.

I could live with that ...
in the meantime I'm going back to watching Fatboy Slim play at Glasto on the iplayer...

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A second vote to satisfy the Remain camp has to be wrong in principle as it defeats the point of a referendum. You could have 16m odd signatories to a petition, but it doesn't mean that a single additional person wants another chance to win. We have made a decision and now have to live with it whether you were out or in. An EU sanctioned second referendum would also require the option of a third one or more until the 'correct' answer was obtained.

Something I find most frustrating about the subsequent noise is that nobody would be complaining if the result had gone the other way. A sort of some votes are more equal than other votes scenario. TG's quote - And then there's Scotland.  And Northern Ireland.  And to a lesser extent Gibraltar, London and Birmingham.  All with a majority Remain vote. implies that these are somehow more worthy than the voters in the parts of the country that voted leave. They had one man one vote just like everyone else, only their interests were different. It might come as a shock to Metro-man, but the country voted in a different direction to London BECAUSE they don't see the benefits of the EU as viewed from London, nor receive them.

What is needed now is a framework to be laid down and the withdrawal conditions implemented. This is a country with broad minded and quite liberal attitudes (irrespective of those who see only racism and bigotry in the 'wrong' answer), so let's get on with life, looking forward, not backwards, and working for the common good (which is the norm)

It's fair to say that Leave voters didn't really expect the vote to go their way because people are by and large conservative when it comes to constitutional or political change and the status quo wins more often than not. However, a failure of the UK to leave the EU having voted for it would be a betrayal of the electorate who voted for change and additionally would send the wrong message to the EU, the depressing implication being they are doing things right. 

 

Edited by Rob

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would they? Farage said he would push for a second referendum beck in may, if the result was 52-48 remain.

From the guardians comments section:

If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost.

Perhaps many Brexiters do not realise it yet, but they have actually lost, and it is all down to one man: David Cameron.

With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership.

How?

Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but, in the midst of the sentimental nautical references of his speech yesterday, he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor.

And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legistlation to be torn up and rewritten ... the list grew and grew.

The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction.

The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50?

Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?

Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-maneouvered and check-mated.

If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over - Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession ... broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.

The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.

When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was "never". When Michael Gove went on and on about "informal negotiations" ... why? why not the formal ones straight away? ... he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.

All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign.

 

this has brought up discussion elsewhere.

 

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