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16 minutes ago, DaveG38 said:

To my mind its simply a matter of deciding who runs the country, the government or the EU. With an elected government we can kick out who we don't like. With the EU we can't. For me it all boils down to this simple question. Add in to this mix some of the outright lies being told, especially by remain and I too am for out.

For instance Cameron keeps telling us that Turkey won't be joining any time soon, but that isn't never. He claims to have a veto, but won't say he will use it. He claims that Turkey isn't on course to join, but they applied to join last century and we are now giving them £1 billion to help them make their case. And finally, as soon as the referendum is over, the EU is re-starting talks on Turkey's accession. So all this crap about they won't join until the distant future is all so much horse manure, designed to make us think that the government is acting responsibly and in our interest. It isn't and it doesn't. And if anybody thinks its just the tories, well Jeremy Corbyn's labour party would act no differently. It's little wonder we all have no regard for politicians.

So the out campaign haven't lied throughout this either ? What about their slogan on the bus of the £350million per week we "give" away, what about the lie that 60% of this countries rule are made up by the Eu ? (in fact its around 10%).

I was very much a vote to be won over yet from what i have read and watched on all of these TV debates the out campaign don't appear to have any real plans in place on how they will change everything, they just keep on saying were british we'll be ok. They've spent months slating the EU, and its members yet they believe when it comes to re negioating terms on trade they'll be welcomed with open arms and will get what we currently have, cant see it myself. Also When question last night on immigration numbers and asked if they intended on lowering the numbers, all three (Boris, Gisela and that other women) looked at each other in dismay and couldn't answer.

In all honesty i'm sick to death of the debate and cant wait for it to be over. I believe its bought out a horrid side to most of this country. Ive heard people referring to immigrants as "them", these are human beings who aren't as fortunate as some of us, yes they are a number that like others in society are bad but, are the Uk going to start getting rid of social benefit cheats and spongs of society ... i doubt it ! 

 

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With all due respects, your worries should not be concerned with the EU vote, but rather the farcical election in the USA come November.  No matter who wins, I predict a fool will be the winner.  And the country and the world are shafted.

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6 minutes ago, scottishmoney said:

With all due respects, your worries should not be concerned with the EU vote, but rather the farcical election in the USA come November.  No matter who wins, I predict a fool will be the winner.  And the country and the world are shafted.

Yep

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15 minutes ago, mhcoins said:

So the out campaign haven't lied throughout this either ? What about their slogan on the bus of the £350million per week we "give" away, what about the lie that 60% of this countries rule are made up by the Eu ? (in fact its around 10%).

I was very much a vote to be won over yet from what i have read and watched on all of these TV debates the out campaign don't appear to have any real plans in place on how they will change everything, they just keep on saying were british we'll be ok. They've spent months slating the EU, and its members yet they believe when it comes to re negioating terms on trade they'll be welcomed with open arms and will get what we currently have, cant see it myself. Also When question last night on immigration numbers and asked if they intended on lowering the numbers, all three (Boris, Gisela and that other women) looked at each other in dismay and couldn't answer.

In all honesty i'm sick to death of the debate and cant wait for it to be over. I believe its bought out a horrid side to most of this country. Ive heard people referring to immigrants as "them", these are human beings who aren't as fortunate as some of us, yes they are a number that like others in society are bad but, are the Uk going to start getting rid of social benefit cheats and spongs of society ... i doubt it ! 

 

The 'lie' about the £350 million is more a case of not properly explaining how that figure is arrived at and what mitigates it. Strictly speaking the figure is correct, but leave don't say that a good proportion of that comes back. Fair enough, but it is equally true that the rebate isn't sacrosanct and the grants given to the UK are also not written into law and are directed i.e. we don't get to say where that money is spent. So, from my perspective, I'd rather the government of the UK decides where to spend the money, not an unelected bunch in Brussels who don't give a flying fig for the member states.

On the issue of the laws of the UK, the 10% figure is correct if you take it as strictly 'laws'. However, when you factor in that the decisions of the Commission have to be worked up into legislation and directives etc, then the 60% figues is much closer to the truth. It is this figure which is the issue since our government has no say over having to enact whatever rules and directives come out of the Commission.

As for real plans in place, well none of the 'leave' team are likely to be leading a government, so to expect them to have detailed plans in place and agreed is totally unrealistic. That doesn't mean however, that their general approach could not be implemented. If you expect detailed plans you will be diappointed, in the same way as there are no detailed plans for if we stay. Is this necessary? Yes, because the EU is about to change dramatically and those changes will impact us significantly. Remain don't like to talk about this because they know it doesn't look good for us.

However, whichever way you look at it, the remain side is almost wholly based on fear, threats and an unenthusiastic grudging defence of the EU. It's hardly a ringing endorsement. I listened to the labour party talking about it at their conference earlier today, and they were almost wholly negative about the EU, and spent most of their time trying to attack the leave campaign. Where's the passion for staying? There wasn't any. The only argument remain have is 'don't take a chance.' Not a convincing case for why the EU is such a wonderful institution is it? We Brits are better than that, so I'm with Boris - I'd love to see tomorrow as our independence day.

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"The 'lie' about the £350 million is more a case of not properly explaining how that figure is arrived at and what mitigates it. Strictly speaking the figure is correct, but leave don't say that a good proportion of that comes back. Fair enough, but it is equally true that the rebate isn't sacrosanct and the grants given to the UK are also not written into law and are directed i.e. we don't get to say where that money is spent.."

thats not true either. Nigel Farage was questioned about this on Question time the other week and he said this was a lie aswell

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Isn't the out campaign also based on fear or have i missed something ?

"The NHS is being crippled" is a line i keep on seeing. Part of the nhs's biggest problem is people are living longer. Also illnesses are far more complex than they were say from 40 - 50 years ago because of the crap people eat. 

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11 minutes ago, mhcoins said:

Isn't the out campaign also based on fear or have i missed something ?

"The NHS is being crippled" is a line i keep on seeing. Part of the nhs's biggest problem is people are living longer. Also illnesses are far more complex than they were say from 40 - 50 years ago because of the crap people eat. 

I agree with that. In fact the reality is precisely the opposite to what is being asserted from some quarters. The NHS relies on immigrant staff to keep going, and to treat an ageing population. Without them it might be "death by default" - the elderly not receiving treatment.      

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Our Rebate on EU payments runs out in three years time, and most of the EU grants taken by British based companies have been relocation grants to Countries were Jobs are needed in Europe to quote a only few as the list is extensive

Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.
Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.
British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.

Money required by the NHS was quoted as £8 Billion over the next Parliament, that was ring fenced in the last Budget

The immigrant staff that used to support the NHS were mostly from Caribbean and Asian countries, now they need a visa.

Looking back over the last coalition Parliament, both Cameron and Osborne talked extensively about the EU and the need for reform, and that we would not pay £1.7 billion demanded as a contribution to balance the EU books, we paid it anyway.

The Conservative manifesto promised a referendum, and Cameron said he would go the EU with a list of demands and come home with reform, he did just that but fell well short of his promises, but now he endorses the EU although he is in the same position as before the promised referendum, he campaign for Parliament as it being a bad thing, yet now campaigns that it isn't and that we should stay

Lots of huffing and puffing on both sides, think it will be a close run result

 

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49 minutes ago, mhcoins said:

"The 'lie' about the £350 million is more a case of not properly explaining how that figure is arrived at and what mitigates it. Strictly speaking the figure is correct, but leave don't say that a good proportion of that comes back. Fair enough, but it is equally true that the rebate isn't sacrosanct and the grants given to the UK are also not written into law and are directed i.e. we don't get to say where that money is spent.."

thats not true either. Nigel Farage was questioned about this on Question time the other week and he said this was a lie aswell

Sorry, but which part isn't true? My understanding is that the rebate isn't set in stone and can be withdrawn. Equally, the grants are directed. And the figure before all this is £350 million as far as I know, so which part isn't true?

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Just now, DaveG38 said:

Sorry, but which part isn't true? My understanding is that the rebate isn't set in stone and can be withdrawn. Equally, the grants are directed. And the figure before all this is £350 million as far as I know, so which part isn't true?

A lady from the out campaign (daily mail reporter i think) was on question time and made the statement about the EU dictating where theses funds are spent etc. When challenged about this myth by David Dimbleby she insisted it was true, he then turned and asked Nigel Farage if this was the case and he said no they don't dictate where its spent or who its given too. 

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1 minute ago, mhcoins said:

A lady from the out campaign (daily mail reporter i think) was on question time and made the statement about the EU dictating where theses funds are spent etc. When challenged about this myth by David Dimbleby she insisted it was true, he then turned and asked Nigel Farage if this was the case and he said no they don't dictate where its spent or who its given too. 

You're on dangerous ground listening to or quoting the Mail. Murdoch doesn't have a monopoly on crap media and reporting. Competition is alive and well on that front. :huh::(

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1 minute ago, Rob said:

You're on dangerous ground listening to or quoting the Mail. Murdoch doesn't have a monopoly on crap media and reporting. Competition is alive and well on that front. :huh::(

It was on Tv ? in fact, it was Allison Pearson of the Telegraph 

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7 minutes ago, mhcoins said:

A lady from the out campaign (daily mail reporter i think) was on question time and made the statement about the EU dictating where theses funds are spent etc. When challenged about this myth by David Dimbleby she insisted it was true, he then turned and asked Nigel Farage if this was the case and he said no they don't dictate where its spent or who its given too. 

No, but when grants are applied for and given, the UK government doesn't just take the cash and do what it wants with it. It has to be spent for the purposes for which it was given. That's not unreasonable, but the fact is that the UK government does not control this money, the EU does. The EU also decides who it goes to, the UK government doesn't. Thus for example, the EU financed much of the investment needed to provide Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly with superfast broadband. Welcome I'm sure it was, but it wasn't the government that decided to do this, using our money, it was the EU. My argument about the EU is always about control and democracy. We should have it and not unelected people elsewhere over whom we have absolutely no say. We can't stop them doing whatever they wish, we can't sack them, we can't hold them to account. We are powerless and for that reason alone, I'm for out.

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1 minute ago, mhcoins said:

It was on Tv ? in fact, it was Allison Pearson of the Telegraph 

OK, so run by those paragons of objective reporting, the Barclays. Is there nothing out there apart from the FT worth reading?

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coin news is ok I've heard ;)

 

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15 minutes ago, DaveG38 said:

No, but when grants are applied for and given, the UK government doesn't just take the cash and do what it wants with it. It has to be spent for the purposes for which it was given. That's not unreasonable, but the fact is that the UK government does not control this money, the EU does. The EU also decides who it goes to, the UK government doesn't. Thus for example, the EU financed much of the investment needed to provide Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly with superfast broadband. Welcome I'm sure it was, but it wasn't the government that decided to do this, using our money, it was the EU. My argument about the EU is always about control and democracy. We should have it and not unelected people elsewhere over whom we have absolutely no say. We can't stop them doing whatever they wish, we can't sack them, we can't hold them to account. We are powerless and for that reason alone, I'm for out.

as a young father of two young boys the proposition of re entering an recession (again) is my biggest concern if we vote out.

the fact that the vast majority of economists, every other leading economy (american, Canada, India, China, etc) all believe we would be better off if we remain in plays a big part in my choice. 

anyhow come tomorrow this saga ends ( i hope)

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What are the odds on a dead heat?

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Latest yougov poll = leave 49% remain 51% ... Unbelievably close

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3 minutes ago, Rob said:

What are the odds on a dead heat?

What are the odds that if it looks a little too close for comfort, some ballot papers will conveniently be deemed spoiled, or lost?

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Be interesting to see what the EU does if we vote to remain. Leaving would be a blow to some egos in Brussels as it would be a measure of failure for their personal investment in the project, but I suspect that secretly some will be over the moon at the removal of perfidious Albion from the equation. Whichever way, there will be a lot of internal pressure from Head Office on the other 27 countries to bolster ties making it more difficult, if not impossible for others to leave.

It's difficult not to feel that a lot of the problems with our membership could have been avoided if Brussels tried to involve the EU's citizens in decision making instead of imposing changes from on high. But that has never been considered an option given the dangers to the project of independent thought. Sad really.

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8 minutes ago, Paulus said:

What are the odds that if it looks a little too close for comfort, some ballot papers will conveniently be deemed spoiled, or lost?

High. Such is the cynicism of the public with regards to their elected representatives.

Having said that, with the results being announced at local centres, there is no option to do this at a central level.

Edited by Rob

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Yesterday my mate found his youngest boy (about 7 I think) having a bit of a cry.

Turns out he thought if we left the EU he'd have to actually pack his bags...:(

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Whatever happens, the next 24hrs will be interesting.....Cameron might be out of a job soon which would be an added bonus....

I'll be watching with interest

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10 hours ago, DaveG38 said:

No, but when grants are applied for and given, the UK government doesn't just take the cash and do what it wants with it. It has to be spent for the purposes for which it was given. That's not unreasonable, but the fact is that the UK government does not control this money, the EU does. The EU also decides who it goes to, the UK government doesn't. Thus for example, the EU financed much of the investment needed to provide Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly with superfast broadband. Welcome I'm sure it was, but it wasn't the government that decided to do this, using our money, it was the EU. My argument about the EU is always about control and democracy. We should have it and not unelected people elsewhere over whom we have absolutely no say. We can't stop them doing whatever they wish, we can't sack them, we can't hold them to account. We are powerless and for that reason alone, I'm for out.

And i'm completely with you on this Dave. I read somewhere the other day that Brussels told the UK that they must hand out child benefit to people who don't even have their children with them, i'm sure this doesn't happen in Germany, so why should it in the UK. I was speaking to the Frau the other day and i said that Brussels messes far to much in other countries laws etc, the EU should be about trade (which it was designed for in the first place) and for that reason i would have been an "out" voter

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12 hours ago, scottishmoney said:

With all due respects, your worries should not be concerned with the EU vote, but rather the farcical election in the USA come November.  No matter who wins, I predict a fool will be the winner.  And the country and the world are shafted.

Lol, thought this was funny.....You might want to be more scared of the upcoming youth :D

 

 

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