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Before Syriza lost its nerve, there was a good chance that a unilateral Grexit would have lessened the economic turmoil in Greece. But in circumstances that have yet to be explained, the Greeks caved in.

After his return from the EU Wroclaw Summit of September 2011, US Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner is reported to have said “Those bastards in the EC, they are going to beat Greece to a pulp with a f**king baseball bat”.

In late 2014, the Telegraph's Ambrose Evans-Pritchard reported a confirmation of the story after reading Geithner’s memoirs. Tim was quoted as follows:

 

“…..the Europeans came into that meeting basically saying: ‘We’re going to teach the Greeks a lesson. They are really terrible. They lied to us. They suck and they were profligate and took advantage of the whole basic thing and we’re going to crush them.”

 

AEP’s comment in the Telegraph piece went like this:

‘So now we know: Europe’s leaders did indeed attempt to smash Greece back into the Stone Age out of vindictive rage; conspired to withhold debt support for Italy unless the elected leader was forced out; and mismanaged the EMU crisis for three years with a level of stupidity that makes you want to weep.’

 

It leads me to believe that if there is no Brexit, Britain will suffer similar punishment from an unelected hierarchy of Goldman Sachs alumni.

 

But this is not my main reason for wanting to leave. The EU financially is a house of cards. Quantative Easing has become the norm (as in the US and UK) in a desperate attempt to prop up economies with no production. Greece has been raped and all of its profit centres privatised. Italy has an enormous hole in its banking system, Portugal also. Spain has a similar problem compounded with severe political instability. In France, a well known bank whose initials coincide with a British right wing political group (French privacy laws make naming names very dangerous)

are broke. No other word for it, held together with baling twine.

And last October, Reuters said:

 

Deutsche Bank has $1.5 trillion of declared asset value on top of $67 billion of net worth. But a large portion of its assets are loans and related financing vehicles and trading positions connected to Glencore, VW, the energy sector, emerging market companies, high yield and a highly unreliably valued net derivatives position. If Deutsche Bank has “mismarked” the value of all these assets by just 5% its net worth is wiped out.

 

The EU has never been audited, its banks and banking systems are a busted flush (UK included) and when, not if, the first bank collapses the whole edifice comes down with it. So, now that we are all bank creditors, not clients; who fancies being on the wrong end of a Eurobank Bail In?

 

 

Edited by bagerap

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Well argued.

And when the system does inevitably collapse, the remedy will of course be full, Europe-wide union. Still however led by the unaccountables, but this time with full control over the inhabitants of the EU. Mission accomplished.

Edited by Rob

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22 hours ago, Rob said:

Machiavelli wrote that the purpose of political power is to maintain itself and to extend itself. It has nothing to do with the welfare of the people. It has nothing to do with principles or ideology or right and wrong. The welfare of the people, principles, ideology, right and wrong: these are related to the means to the end, but the goal is power. Do whatever it takes to keep your power and extend your power.

Which is why a vote to remain in is a vote to continue being treated as an inconvenience by the unelected and unaccountables, but nothing more. Any suggestion that we would be able to reform the EU by remaining is a delusion.

Machiavelli should be required reading by all as understanding it would better equip people to make a rational decision. Any potential reduction in the power of those on top should be grasped when the opportunity arises, because they aren't going to give it up willingly.

500 years after it was written, the arguments hold true today as they ever did, whether it be prior to Magna Carta, the reform laws of 200 years ago, the control of the Vatican over large swathes of the world's population or modern day North Korea. Abrogate your responsibilities at your children's peril.

All very true but I'm still struggling not to tar the UK politians with the same brush.

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1 minute ago, Gary1000 said:

All very true but I'm still struggling not to tar the UK politians with the same brush.

UK politicians operate under the same Machiavellian principles as the Eurocrats in Brussels, but at least the problem would be 'in house' so to speak with an agenda that is certain to be more UK-centric than the EU will ever offer. We also have the useful inconvenience of elections - anathema to the EU's inner circle. Got to look after ourselves, because nobody else will do so. Charity begins at home, not in a committee with other priorities.

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On another forum, the subject of understanding the facts of the in/out arguments is under discussion. Here's my cartwheel tuppence worth.

There is a simple answer to the question about facts and it goes like this. Firstly, ignore all the financial stuff. The IMF, OECD, ONS etc all get things wrong and so their assessment about financial meltdown can be taken as nothing more than an educated guess. Even they do not suggest total collapse of the economy and a slump to abject poverty. The world and the UK will go on after an exit, and the impact in the longer term will be slight if even noticeable. And if we stay, the same is true. Whatever stupidity the EU and Eurozone imposes on us our world will still go on. In short forget facts about the money because there aren't any, and even if there were, circumstances would quickly alter over time to make them irelevant.

Now take some of the other issues. For instance security or climate change. When you think about it both are sideshows, whether we are in the EU or not. The channel gives us a measure of security not enjoyed by the rest of Europe, and as for climate change it seems to me that since we account for about 2% of world emissions, whatever we do, inside or outside the EU, really won't make a blind bit of difference, so again ignore it. This is true also for many other 'minor' areas associated with our membership or otherwise, such as visa free travel, the ban on high energy vacuum cleaners or mobile phone roaming charges. My point here is again that facts don't really matter in the slightest in the grand scheme of things. They are trivia. Does anybody really think that giving people visa free travel arrangements is a good reason in itself for staying in?

I could go on and on, but cutting to the chase the only issue you need to focus on is the central and critical one of who do you want to govern you. Whatever you think of the voting system in the UK or the government of the day, history shows that elections can bring change, and thus the people do have a measure of collective say over who governs them. Remain in the EU, and it is a 'fact' that much of the laws and regulations that cover daily life is not put in place by the UK government, but by the EU. Not all, and not in all areas of life e.g education isn't covered. A second 'fact' is that you and I and every other citizen of the EU has absolutely no say in appointing whoever brings about the legislation and the endless flow of regulations from Brussels. You can do nothing to stop it and nothing to sack them. Now this is where you have a choice. You can leave, and have a government that has control over all aspects of national life and which you can get rid if you wish, or you can stick with an unelected bunch of elites who do whatever they wish collectively regardless of the impact on EU citizens, over whom you have no say whatsoever. All the time the EU is doing things that benefit you, you might regard this as OK, but I'm guessing if you were a Greek you'd feel rather different.

So this is your stark choice. Do you want us to be governed from within, or do you want to be governed by foreigners over whom you have absolutely no control? Notice that I have studiously avoided the 'I' word, but clearly on the basis of who governs us, control of immigration can only be taken if the country governs itself. Leave and our government decides what immigration is needed and acceptable. Stay and we have no control whatsoever.

Choice is yours on 23 June, but the question is simply this 'Who should govern the UK?' For me, the answer is that I want us to govern ourselves. All the rest is just froth on top of the coffee.

 

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On 5/22/2016 at 9:50 AM, Rob said:

What? The grand old US of E? ;)

Sorry, it's too serious an issue to make light. There is an agenda which is going to be pursued irrespective of the people of Europe until presented as a fait accompli. Just as Europe wandered blindly into WW1 by political agreements and alliances, so is it doing the same with a united states of Europe. People need to stop digging themselves into a hole they will be unable to exit.

But I am saying that Britain has more in common with her former colonies what with shared values of democracy, tradition etc. as opposed to being a part of the EU.

 

But the next war is indeed on the horizon, and there will be a lot of surprises - look at some of what is going on in some of the "new" democracies in E. Europe.  Some countries like Hungary and Poland have experienced a backlash vs. the EU and even NATO lately.  What was unthinkable 10-15 years ago, vis a vis favouring Russia's ambitions are becoming much more the norm.  Whilst Germany and France now have a 60+ year alliance with few cracks, some other countries are not quite so onboard with such alliances. 

 

 

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This is the discussion, in America, but  with a UK participant, Really had me transfixed and scared me rigid. Mainly because his forecasts all made sense and were purely logical.

 

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Funnily enough it has nothing to do with America, just like the Americans voting for a racist Presidential nominee is nothing to do with us, but god help us if Trump actually becomes President. It sounds like Paul Weston was brought in as Trumps helper, speaking like a racist with the "them and us" speech. Just another Nick Griffin

Edited by azda

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I think the point is that he is warning America not to make the mistakes that the EU ( and UK) are making.

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2 hours ago, Geordie582 said:

This is the discussion, in America, but  with a UK participant, Really had me transfixed and scared me rigid. Mainly because his forecasts all made sense and were purely logical.

 

Wow...powerful stuff. 

Logically, he's correct about the future birth demographics being skewed the way he suggests. Unless something dramatic happens, I don't see how that will change. There won't be a gradual blurring of the lines through - for want of a better expression - "marrying out", as Muslims are a very close community. You don't hear of many muslims marrying or partnering Western men/women.

As to whether the cataclysm he refers to, will happen, is much more up for debate. None of us really know. 

 

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Presumably a bit of everything. Personal experience is that there will always be some people that inter-marry, which usually works ok when religion is dispensed with. I also know of the opposite, where religion has thrown a real long-term spanner in the works following a death in the family.

The demographics will become more skewed as things stand and it is difficult to argue otherwise. I'm not optimistic that it will be for the better. However good your immediate circumstances are, public opinion will be driven by the headlines.

It would still be better if we were out of Europe with selective immigration, taking the skills we need.

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23 hours ago, Geordie582 said:

I think the point is that he is warning America not to make the mistakes that the EU ( and UK) are making.

Again, he's just doing what Obama was doing for the Government when he spoke and said that they (UK) shouldn't leave the UK, they did they same during the indy ref when they said the Scots were dangerous etc etc etc, then during the GENERAL ELECTION the Labour party were dangerous, everybody is dangerous should you listen to people like this. It's those who Are in power who are the Most dangerous

Edited by azda

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So you don't think his British logic is relevant? He's the only one I've heard in this campaign that makes any sense. 

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If you want to hear a coherant 'leave' argument, you would do well to look up Dan Hannan. He makes Gove, Johnson etc. look like muppets. Even Farage looks mediocre by comparison.

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3 hours ago, Geordie582 said:

So you don't think his British logic is relevant? He's the only one I've heard in this campaign that makes any sense. 

Opinions are relevant Geordie, but if You take My 2 examples of The indy referendum and then The General election, if we were to believe Cameron on both counts that The Scots were dangerous and then Labour was dangerous we'd then believe that only The Conservatives Are The only safe party. Every single person  on who talks on the TV about in/out or Independence or not or vote conservative because Labour are dangerous all have agendas, do we get The correct facts or their OWN version of something because they want your vote....

Scaring The masses through the Biased Broadcasting Company otherwise known as The BBC is a great tactic because People will believe what they hear if you scare them enough.

Edited by azda

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6 hours ago, azda said:

Again, he's just doing what Obama was doing for the Government when he spoke and said that they (UK) shouldn't leave the UK, they did they same during the indy ref when they said the Scots were dangerous etc etc etc, then during the GENERAL ELECTION the Labour party were dangerous, everybody is dangerous should you listen to people like this. It's those who Are in power who are the Most dangerous

Which is the perfect reason for voting to leave. You cut out one layer of politicians at a stroke. :)

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Just back from a few days in Cornwall and have to say that there was virtually no conversation overheard supporting remaining in the EU, but much opining on the merits of leaving. Half the population appears to be keeping mum, but I'm sure they will vote come June 23rd. On the positive side, there was little Daily Mail style paranoia about immigration, and a lot of reasoned debate. :)

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I'm not hearing too much support for the remain campaign either Rob. Right now I think we probably will leave. Friends of mine were telling me why we should leave the other week whilst discussing Somalian immigrants here in the UK. They looked surprised when I pointed out that if we're in or out you'll still have Somalian immigrants entering the UK... Ah well...

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TTIP, you know what that is don't you?
It's one of the major reasons for leaving the EU. Europe is ready to sign. Actually, that's not exactly true. The unelected EU leadership is ready to sign but they're keeping the details of the treaty secret. If your MEP wants to read the details, he has to go to a locked and guarded room where he or she can read it but not take any notes; and of course your MEP can't vote on the matter. Apart from being a ticking financial time bomb, the EU is also deeply undemocratic.
But you knew that didn't you?

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/what-is-ttip-and-six-reasons-why-the-answer-should-scare-you-9779688.html

 

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TTIP is a huge reason why we don't want to be part of it. Frankly, I don't know why they are so anxious to sign up in Brussels, other than every other advisor is ex Goldman Sachs.

For those unaware, it will please the greens, not, by the forced acceptance of GM food which is currently very restricted in the EU, the unions can have the privatisation of the NHS in all but name that they decry the Tories for trying to slip in by the back-door (this despite being arranged by a nominally centre-left Commission) and it will lead to a free for all with unfettered access for all the corporations with the deepest pockets. Instead of being ruled by Brussels, it will be Amazon, Google, Facebook, etc all washed down with a healthy dose of Goldman-Sachs and J P Morgan to control your banking.

Just as Philip Morris sued the Australian government for restrictive trade laws when demanding plain cigarette packaging, so you could reasonably expect free at the point of service healthcare to be considered discriminating against US healthcare groups who charge. Why play with fire when you don't have to?

I would back the US and its companies to have the smarter lawyers (who incidentally will have a field day at taxpayers expense)

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Just posting.

From Monarchy to democracy to capitalism to corporation???From gold,silver to digital to QE.From world reserve currency for trade to currency to Security to one percent of worlds  wealth.

What will happen to top major world reserve currency if sterling pound is gone?

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On 3/6/2016 at 6:37 AM, Colin G. said:

Politics and forums is never a good idea..are we sure we want to head down this route...we end up arguing over whether a coin should be encased in plastic :lol:

Some would suggest that plastic and coin don't mix - me being one.

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Mind made up - voting leave. Had enough of our country being bossed from abroad, but more importantly, worried about uncontrolled migrantion from the EU and the unwitting import of embedded terrorist cells, not to mention the severe property/accommodation shortage.

I appreciate there will be some financial issues arising, but long term, I think it's for the best.

I do think, however, that remain will win, and there is a slight bounce in their favour following the tragic death of Jo Cox last week.  

 

.  

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I don't think her death will sway more than the odd one or two people. Sympathy yes, but the result of the actions of a nutter, the like of which are relatively few and far between.

I think most folks have taken on board the fact that this is an issue which transcends any feelings one may have for the various 'leaders'. To quote the late Robin Day - 'You're just a here today, gone tomorrow politician'. All of them will be liable to deselection by the electorate (thankfully), but the country will have to move on regardless of the outcome.

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To my mind its simply a matter of deciding who runs the country, the government or the EU. With an elected government we can kick out who we don't like. With the EU we can't. For me it all boils down to this simple question. Add in to this mix some of the outright lies being told, especially by remain and I too am for out.

For instance Cameron keeps telling us that Turkey won't be joining any time soon, but that isn't never. He claims to have a veto, but won't say he will use it. He claims that Turkey isn't on course to join, but they applied to join last century and we are now giving them £1 billion to help them make their case. And finally, as soon as the referendum is over, the EU is re-starting talks on Turkey's accession. So all this crap about they won't join until the distant future is all so much horse manure, designed to make us think that the government is acting responsibly and in our interest. It isn't and it doesn't. And if anybody thinks its just the tories, well Jeremy Corbyn's labour party would act no differently. It's little wonder we all have no regard for politicians.

Edited by DaveG38

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