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Short and to the point. :)

 

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On 9 March 2016 at 11:43 PM, DaveG38 said:

The problem with the current arguments regarding 'in' or 'out' is that they are all very short term. Cameron says there will be 'shocks' and 'uncertainty' etc. and that's probably correct. But markets and economies soon shrug off these once things settle down, so I am discounting all the short term concerns that people are considering. For me it's more about the long term. Is the EU a long term growth prospect for UK goods and services? Simple answer, no. The EU is contracting with little sign it will recover in any term; short, medium or long. Why? Because the nature of the organisation is such that it is a huge self-serving bureacracy, incapable of reacting to situations or circumstances, and with little idea how to stimulate growth and encourage expansion in member states. It also encourages hand-outs to its poorer countries, which provides little incentive for them to improve. Meanwhile the larger states pick up the bill, including the UK.

Hence, the prospect of reform in the EU is remote and the idea that the organisation will do trade deals with China, India, Brazil etc. is an impossible dream. It's taken 9 years to try to do so with Canada, so I'm not holding my breath for much progress in my lifetime with the rest of the world. In simple terms there is no incentive for the EU hierarchy to change the present situation, since that will involve the turkeys voting for Christmas, and they aren't going to do that and leave their travel perks, their cars, their big offices and budgets behind. At the same time, whatever the 'deal' with Cameron, they are still on track for their dream of a United States of Europe. That won't go away and we will never be able to stop it. 

As for returning powers to national governments, it simply won't happen. That's an anathema to the EU organisation, which will simply plough on regardless. The evidence for this is all around in the way it relentlessly pushes forward, no matter what.

Finally, the EU is fundamentally undemocratic - I have no say in what it does. I can do nothing to help remove anybody I don't want. It's an unelected dictatorship which looks after itself and not it's citizens. It's accounts have not been properly signed off from it's audits for many years, suggesting endemic corruption.

As far as I'm concerned, do away with it for the UK. The idea that we couldn't survive is simply nonsense. And the biggest reason is what the 'in' campaigners don't say. Leave aside project 'fear' and there's really nothing left that represents good reasons for remaining 'in.' I've listened to many of the arguments and it's always based on what will happen if we leave, not what will happen if we stay. For instance, if we stay what would the UK do about migration when Turkey gets membership? What threats and risks does that pose? What impact would that have on the UK culture, way of life etc. Cameron and co. can't say, or maybe won't say, but I'm under no illusions that the impact would be profound and not in a positive way.

For all these reasons, I'm for 'OUT'. I have confidence that the UK would do very well outside the straightjacket of the EU. 

 

There is a presumption that Turkey actual want membership when in fact they don't, and to clarify Michael' thought on immigrants all getting visas to freely move, this is also a misconception as I was at a German language school where I was studying with refugees from Iraq and Syria plus a few Americans and a few of those had relatives in other lands such as Australia and even one in Wales, they were'nt even allowed in Austria, so that can be knocked in the head, those that do actually move are the ones who become illegal immigrants....

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Should have paid more attention in school :( - "what is the difference between the European Council, The council of the European Union and the Council Of Europe". 

In or out is like having a debate about the debate than having a debate on the issues. The way I see it is - there is a requirement for us to hand our democratic rights so that politicians can elect who our leaders would be. For the favour we have would have to put up with the EU creating our laws.

 

 

Edited by Prax
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In my opinion the EU should be about trade and defending the borders of each country who are members, the fact the meddle into other countries laws etc is what I dislike about it. The original concept of the "common market " seems lost and needs a complete revamp

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Problem is I can't be a*sed to sit through even one second let alone the other one hour eleven minutes of Brexit. Same applies to the other side. Got better things to do with my time.

And there's the main point. Being 70 next month I suppose I shouldn't even vote because it's not going to affect me all that much in the long run.

Now I'm regretting the few minutes it's taken to make this reply.

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On 3/6/2016 at 9:02 AM, Mynki said:

Absolutely. Seasonal agricultural roles in Lincolnshire would be one example where the Poles do the work the locals don't want to do (This has been covered in several TV documentaries where the locals don't want to do this kind of work). Unfortunately they spend very little in the local economy where the UK locals would do, instead they send if back to Poland.

That said, we all benefit with cheaper food prices and cheaper services if immigrants do perform a lot of these menial tasks. Your London hotel room bill would be higher if they didn't employ these people.

Love or loathe the tories at least their 'make work pay' attitude is trying to reverse the benefits are a lifestyle choice mentality created by the Blair / Brown government.

So you're quite happy to be ruled by faceless bureaucrats sitting in Belgium without of ever being able to influence the law making process? Don't quote the MEP's they can't even change a thing, as they've already admitted.

Edited by Geordie582
Lazy fingers!

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1 hour ago, Geordie582 said:

So you're quite happy to be ruled by faceless bureaucrats sitting in Belgium without of ever being able to influence the law making process? Don't quote the MEP's they can't even change a thing, as they've already admitted.

Answer me this...

Do the faceless bureaucrats tell me what house and car I can buy? Tell me where I can go on holiday? Who I can be friends with? What hobbies and interests I can pursue? Do they get in the way of either of my jobs? Do they affect my health, wealth and love life? If so, please explain in detail how so.

Lets assume we do come out of the EU and I'm starting to think we may. Imagine all of that red tape imposed by these faceless bureaucrats for a moment, do you really think it will all just vanish. Will it all be improved?

If people want to live in a nation with genuine 'sovereignty' then they should move to North Korea.... 

 

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1 hour ago, Mynki said:

If people want to live in a nation with genuine 'sovereignty' then they should move to North Korea.... 

:lol:

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Out. The sky is not going to fall in when we vote out.

 

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On 3/6/2016 at 9:02 AM, Mynki said:

Absolutely. Seasonal agricultural roles in Lincolnshire would be one example where the Poles do the work the locals don't want to do (This has been covered in several TV documentaries where the locals don't want to do this kind of work). Unfortunately they spend very little in the local economy where the UK locals would do, instead they send if back to Poland.

That said, we all benefit with cheaper food prices and cheaper services if immigrants do perform a lot of these menial tasks. Your London hotel room bill would be higher if they didn't employ these people.

Love or loathe the tories at least their 'make work pay' attitude is trying to reverse the benefits are a lifestyle choice mentality created by the Blair / Brown government.

So you're quite happy ton be ruled by faceless bureaucrats sitting in Belgium without of ever being able to influence the law making process? Don't quote the MEP's they can't even change a thin, as they've already admitted.

At least we can get rid of our politicians if they mess up or get too big for themselves whereas there is no mechanism in the EU for the proles to change the gravy train riders. "forward to closer political union" is the avowed aim of Brussels. Has a familiar ring to it. Boris has nailed it.

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Most  who have  expressed an opinion so far seem to be for leaving, the bookies are currently as short as 4/1 on that we stay, for what it's worth

  

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That's because the majority of people in favour of leaving are older. Coinies tend to be older. Unfortunately you cannot put the collective experience of the past 40 years into a twenty year old. It is too big an opportunity to turn down, as there is unlikely to be another in the next 50 years - unless natural selection comes into play, in which case the EU will die of natural causes. Smile - shit can, and could, happen :)

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On 3/6/2016 at 9:02 AM, Mynki said:

Absolutely. Seasonal agricultural roles in Lincolnshire would be one example where the Poles do the work the locals don't want to do (This has been covered in several TV documentaries where the locals don't want to do this kind of work). Unfortunately they spend very little in the local economy where the UK locals would do, instead they send if back to Poland.

That said, we all benefit with cheaper food prices and cheaper services if immigrants do perform a lot of these menial tasks. Your London hotel room bill would be higher if they didn't employ these people.

Love or loathe the tories at least their 'make work pay' attitude is trying to reverse the benefits are a lifestyle choice mentality created by the Blair / Brown government.

So you're quite happy ton be ruled by faceless bureaucrats sitting in Belgium without of ever being able to influence the law making process? Don't quote the MEP's they can't even change a thin, as they've already admitted.

At least we can get rid of our politicians if they mess up or get too big for themselves whereas there is no mechanism in the EU for the proles to change the gravy train riders. "forward to closer political union" is the avowed aim of Brussels. Has a familiar ring to it. Boris has nailed it.

Who believe who?? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3593872/17bn-true-cost-immigration-UK-year.html  and who's been manipulating statistics?

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Faceless bureaucrats siting in Belgium or faceless bureaucrats siting in London, mmm let me think about this for a minute :blink:

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Hope that UKGB can have both worlds be part of EU and Commonwealth and can easily trade all over the world and control its border etc. and maybe EU can use the pound as its currency instead of Euro to counter the dollar or Yuan just a posting.

Edited by josie

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It still doesn't seem to sink in. You CAN get rid of GB politicians, you CAN'T get rid of Eurocrats, not even the European Parliament!!!

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1 hour ago, Geordie582 said:

It still doesn't seem to sink in. You CAN get rid of GB politicians, you CAN'T get rid of Eurocrats, not even the European Parliament!!!

Surly these so called eurocrats are the EU version of our civil servants, we can get rid of them can we.

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32 minutes ago, Gary1000 said:

Surly these so called eurocrats are the EU version of our civil servants, we can get rid of them can we.

'We' as in Britain cannot get rid of them in the way that we could get rid of our own civil servants. 

The issue here is that the EU is an evolving federal structure and these 'Eurocrats' are the civil servants of that structure.

However, there is a very weak control and accountability mechanism in place. Effective power resides with qualified majority voting by national governments while the European Parliament is a pretty weak counterbalance. So there is no real day to day oversight of bureaucratic actions and decisions by an organism that has the power to do anything about it.

Other federal structures (e.g. USA, Switzerland) have a well defined understanding of the division of powers with an established legislative process at both state and federal levels to manage that power. Thus, civil servants at both levels are accountable to the relevant legislative bodies. The EU does not have that understanding or even a consensus on what the overall entity should look like and has not developed the legislative structures which can hold civil servants to account. What this has led to is a democratic deficit at the centre where decisions are made but with no oversight or accountability.

Clearly, if the EU is to continue down its existing path then it needs to develop the democratic institutions that can manage the 'federal' power. The problem in Britain is that many people are not comfortable with that 'existing path'. They thought they were joining a trading block and not a nascent European federal state.

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Unfortunately not, we can not vote for EU Council members or Presidents

We can elect our own UK representatives, but as Nigel Farage said last week, of 72 proposals voted against last year by our own elected members, all 72 proposals were pushed through by the EU, bit of a waste of time having any representation, chocolate teapot et al

I saw Neil Kinnock adding his weight behind the Stay campaign, not surprisingly, he was pushed aside after failing to become Prime Minister, joined the EU Parliament and alongside his wife and son, and now all are Multi millionaires, I can't remember voting for any of them.

I put a snippet up showing the cons of EU membership, hoped to see a Pro video, if there is one, to balance the discussion

 

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1 hour ago, Gary1000 said:

Surly these so called eurocrats are the EU version of our civil servants, we can get rid of them can we.

Justifying two lots of bureaucrats by saying we will be stuck with one is hardly a strong argument :D

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Jaggy, Chingford and Coin.G . Thank you ! You've saved my blood pressure by not having to reply !!!:angry::lol:B)

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4 hours ago, jaggy said:

'We' as in Britain cannot get rid of them in the way that we could get rid of our own civil servants. 

The issue here is that the EU is an evolving federal structure and these 'Eurocrats' are the civil servants of that structure.

However, there is a very weak control and accountability mechanism in place. Effective power resides with qualified majority voting by national governments while the European Parliament is a pretty weak counterbalance. So there is no real day to day oversight of bureaucratic actions and decisions by an organism that has the power to do anything about it.

Other federal structures (e.g. USA, Switzerland) have a well defined understanding of the division of powers with an established legislative process at both state and federal levels to manage that power. Thus, civil servants at both levels are accountable to the relevant legislative bodies. The EU does not have that understanding or even a consensus on what the overall entity should look like and has not developed the legislative structures which can hold civil servants to account. What this has led to is a democratic deficit at the centre where decisions are made but with no oversight or accountability.

Clearly, if the EU is to continue down its existing path then it needs to develop the democratic institutions that can manage the 'federal' power. The problem in Britain is that many people are not comfortable with that 'existing path'. They thought they were joining a trading block and not a nascent European federal state.

This is at the heart of the problem. The EU in its various forms has been in existence for 60 years, but any strengthening of the institution has never been accompanied by any accountability to the people it dictates to. At no point has there been a call for political unity, but that hasn't stopped them quietly increasing their power over national legislation to make the unaccountables the de-facto political rulers. They actually sit well alongside the various central committees in those paragons of democracy such as China or North Korea - a centrally managed political and economic system, with a toothless parliament put in place to rubber stamp official policy. Sorry, but I see little difference in the two scenarios when it comes to legislation and accountability.

This referendum has been a large wake-up call for those at the centre of Europe because big Dave did the unthinkable - he decided to ask the voters what they think. As a consequence, Europe is now in uncharted waters because the status quo was always to act without reference to voters. Europe will change following the referendum irrespective of the outcome, but the underwear soiling problem for the eurocrats is that the outcome of the referendum is not in their control. This means the normal procedure of having a second referendum in the event of an inappropriate outcome is not an option and, worryingly for them, people might now demand a voice across the continent. They will have difficulty putting the genie back in the bottle. They don't currently have an outline plan for central accountability because nobody wants the gravy train to arrive at the destination, and then they wonder why anti-EU sentiment is running so strongly. The point that is frequently missed is that this issue is not for most people a case of spouting nationalistic rhetoric. It isn't about immigration, though most would like to see at least some measure of control at our borders. It isn't because half the citizens of this country hate foreigners - they don't. What they do hate is power associated with a lack of accountability. Parallels with fat cats anyone?

Anyway, too much scaremongering going on as to the consequences of us leaving. Frankly, the west is in the mire unless it gets its act together. That is easier to do at a national level for all countries rather than the one size fits all EU.

 

Edited by Rob
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Bit of a contrarian view it appears, but I'm for in.

I have no real problems with a federal Europe, generally feel that the freedom to travel, simplicity of getting a job and convenience of a single currency are good things, particularly for my daughter's generation who I'm sure see the world in different terms than us oldies.

Imagine the hassle if we had to obtain visas and be anally probed biometrically recorded for each European country we might wish to visit as is now required for the US.  Imagine the inconvenience of different purchase taxes/ vat whenever we buy something from a dealer or auction house in Spain or Germany.  The loss of the convenience of low cost phone roaming, drawing your pension or receiving free-at-point-of-treatment medical care ...  Add to that working time directives, maternity policies/ parental leave .. all covered by EU legislation and things that as an employee I am pleased to see in place.

People talk of 'faceless bureaucrats', but who here could identify many of our UK senior Civil Servants if shown a photo?  Our democratic system is based on bureaucracy so to say the EU should be different is daft.  Sure, it may not be a perfect set-up, but then what is?  I personally think it's better to be in and able to influence things than out and subject to policy changes but without a voice. 

Can I guarantee that if we left major companies would move to where it's more convenient to do business?  That prices of goods on the high street would go up?  That Britain would lose a degree of international influence?  No. But those are things I fear.  It's not perfect, but it ain't broke to my eyes and leaving won't 'fix' it ...

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5 hours ago, Geordie582 said:

It still doesn't seem to sink in. You CAN get rid of GB politicians, you CAN'T get rid of Eurocrats, not even the European Parliament!!!

I can't get rid of my local MP as there is a first past the post system and I live in a safe seat.  That's not exactly a ringing endorsement for me wanting to leave the EU now is it?

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