Reference Material for 17th Century Copper Coinage

[DaveG38 385]

There has been much comment on here and in reference books concerning the wealth of varieties and error coins in the copper/tin series of the 17th century, especially William III. Mostly the comments revolve around the idea that the Mint was poorly run and the die sinkers were illiterate foreign workers, plus claims that the Mint's own records of the time are non-existent, yet I can't readily find much in print to substantiate these claims.

Does anybody have any suggestions where I can find any detailed studies of the mint around this time or books that get down into what was going on back in Isaac Newton's day? I'm asking because I'm giving some serious thought to trying to research this area with a view to clarifying as much as I can, and I'd like to see what exactly is the state of play regarding William II's copper coinage.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

[Peter 615]

Dave

Obvious sources

Dr Nicholsons 1/2d collection

Cooke farthing lists and auctions

Montagu's book

Bramah's book

Coincraft 2000

Peck

A right can of worms good luck

[Rob 3,002]

Any references in the footnotes of Peck would be worth revisiting, as would any documentation regarding the sacking of James Roettier in 1696/7 and the appointment of Coker and Bull.

One of the footnotes for W3 in Peck by Farquhar "Concerning some Roettiers Dies" NC, 1917, p.126 might help. I have Snelling and Ruding, the latter of which looks particularly helpful with contemporary leads, or at least articles written soon after the event.

[Nordle11 564]

Someone's got a biiiiiig job ahead of them! Good luck Dave!

[DaveG38 385]

Dave

Obvious sources

Dr Nicholsons 1/2d collection

Cooke farthing lists and auctions

Montagu's book

Bramah's book

Coincraft 2000

Peck

A right can of worms good luck

Got a few of these sources, but I'm also interested in tackling it from an academic/historical perspective as well i.e. by understanding the 'politics' of the Mint at the time etc. I might even be able to do this through an academic route over a number of years.

[copper123 1,352]

I think at the time silver production and copper production were in seperate areas of the mint .

I surpose everyone wanted to work on the silver and gold coins as they would have more presteige.

So the dregs and apprentices got the jobs on the copper

[Peter 615]

I think at the time silver production and copper production were in seperate areas of the mint .

I surpose everyone wanted to work on the silver and gold coins as they would have more presteige.

So the dregs and apprentices got the jobs on the copper

How things change.

Now the opposite with collectors.

[scott 129]

this is something i was looking for as well, just to have a look more at the varieties

the montagu and Bramah books I need really.

and also silver was minted in different places, not just the mint.

Peck is a decent source of the basics.

finding a book on the politics of the mint itself would be difficult, only ever seen a book regarding such things for medieval coinage.

the sources must exist, because the information in these books must have come from somewhere.

coincraft 2000? whats this got?

[Peter 615]

Issac Newton search on google may assist.

Coincraft to their credit did some decent write ups in relevant sections.

[copper123 1,352]

silver coinage was made in several provincial towns in the great recoinage - i suspect the dies were made at the tower mint and safely and carefully sent to the towns , york , chester , etc probaby with a couple of senior staff to oversee production.

[Rob 3,002]

silver coinage was made in several provincial towns in the great recoinage - i suspect the dies were made at the tower mint and safely and carefully sent to the towns , york , chester , etc probaby with a couple of senior staff to oversee production.

I think this assumption is the only way you can rationally explain most letter overmarks. It doesn't make sense for a die to be sent from say Exeter to York (in the case of the y over E 1696 2/6d). A far more plausible explanation is that the dies were ready for despatch from the Tower mint when an urgent request came through from a provincial mint for more dies and they recut one sitting on the shelf to fill the order. Transfer of dies between provincial mints only makes sense once operations were being wound down at the end of the recoinage given the scale of the operation and hence demand for dies.

The provincial mints closed starting with Norwich and York in April 1698, Chester in June, Exeter in July and finally Bristol in September 1698. The only likely overcut mint letters are therefore like to be B over E for coins dated 1698 being geographically close and which would be conveniently dropped off when the dies were returned to the Tower. The others are quite remote from each other, so as there are no 1698 coins with the overmark, it is quite possible that transfers between provincial mints never took place at all. Even if you assumed that provincial 1698 coins were struck using 1697 dies, the rarity of 1697 overmarks suggests that most were made in 1696 at the height of the recoinage, thus reinforcing the theory that the recutting took place at the Tower.

Edited November 12, 2015 by Rob

[copper123 1,352]

Exactly, and this period still has great interest to us collectors, pity about all those melted down hammered coins though, esp the charles shillings

[InforaPenny 21]

scott,

The book you want is:

A New History of the Royal Mint

published by the Cambridge University Press in 1992

editied by C. E. Challis

Best Regards,

InforaPenny

[Michael-Roo 777]

scott,

The book you want is:

A New History of the Royal Mint

published by the Cambridge University Press in 1992

editied by C. E. Challis

Best Regards,

InforaPenny

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Zz89AAAAIAAJ&pg=PR4&lpg=PR4&dq=A+New+History+of+the+Royal+Mint+published+by+the+Cambridge+University+Press+in+1992+editied+by+C.+E.+Challis&source=bl&ots=bGSkLmGaKL&sig=WeSy9nqHmVnmS7h4U6-eCd_-tIc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCIQ6AEwAGoVChMI_LzC2YGLyQIVi-sUCh3FHwnH#v=onepage&q=A%20New%20History%20of%20the%20Royal%20Mint%20published%20by%20the%20Cambridge%20University%20Press%20in%201992%20editied%20by%20C.%20E.%20Challis&f=false

[Michael-Roo 777]

The above is abridged, unfortunately, but worth a look all the same…..

[Rob 3,002]

Exactly, and this period still has great interest to us collectors, pity about all those melted down hammered coins though, esp the charles shillings

Get stuck in at DNW right now. Bob Lyall's collection is going through as I write.