New undiscovered 1860 obverse die

[PWA 1967 1,840]

The picture is above the post Richard.

[terrysoldpennies 691]

Looking at the F19 2+f the D in FD points to the right of the tooth , but on the F2 145 it's to the tooth if slightly to the left . Terry

[jelida 1,196]

Hi all,

Any more opinions regarding the 145 tooth F10? Has MG expressed a view, Richard?

I have scoured the net and not found any more.

I still think there has been work in the hair around the nape of the neck. I am attaching images to try and demonstrate this. The first is my 145 tooth F10, then Terry's. Then 143 tooth F10's from Heritage, R Ingrams and LCA. And finally a F15 'Gouby G' revision (138 tooth) without the 'tuft' of hair at the nape for comparison. Your thoughts welcomed.

Jerry

[terrysoldpennies 691]

Hi Jerry , I probably being dumb, but looking at your set of pictures I must say i'm not quite sure what you have noticed about the nape, could you clarify. I do noticed that the Knot on our coins is kind of half round where as most of the others it seem to form more of an oval shape. I wonder if this is two types of type 2 , with ours being one of them . Also I wonder if in the opinion of the penny collectors that this was a trial die, that was not adopted because it fell apart.

I just wonder this as the cracks look terminal on all four known coins . If any member finds another it woud be great if you could post it, especially if it has no cracks. Terry

[jelida 1,196]

Hi Terry,

its the bulge of hair on the back of the neck to the left and slightly below the knot of the bow. Perhaps start with the last image, of a die modified from F15 (obverse 4), an obverse die designated 'Gouby G' by Michael Gouby, and in which the 'tuft' of hair is not present. Then look at the preceding 3 images, normal F10's, where the tuft is prominent. Then look at ours, the first two images, where I feel the 'tuft' is much reduced, and I feel there has also been re-engraving just above and to the right of the knot.

It is difficult however to compare images of differing resolutions, lighting, die wear etc, and so I am anxious to hear what others think. It seems to me that the differing number of teeth, along with design changes, however subtle, would be pretty definitive criteria for declaring this a truly new obverse die, and all kudos to you for noticing it.

Jerry

First pic is 145 teeth, second a normal 143 tooth.

[secret santa 2,013]

Hi all,

Any more opinions regarding the 145 tooth F10? Has MG expressed a view, Richard?

I have scoured the net and not found any more.

I still think there has been work in the hair around the nape of the neck. I am attaching images to try and demonstrate this. The first is my 145 tooth F10, then Terry's. Then 143 tooth F10's from Heritage, R Ingrams and LCA. And finally a F15 'Gouby G' revision (138 tooth) without the 'tuft' of hair at the nape for comparison. Your thoughts welcomed.

Jerry

Michael Gouby is currently in Paris celebrating his wife's birthday. He will get back to mundane matters like this exciting new find when he returns !

[secret santa 2,013]

For me, the other significant difference is the apparent missing chunks below the fabric rose and Victoria's cape (on the new D) when comparing the "new" obverse with my own F10. See pictures,

Ooops, I've just discovered that I don't know how to attach thumbnails....... Help !!!!!!!!

[secret santa 2,013]

Perhaps I do.

[jelida 1,196]

I am not sure about the bust line, Richard, it as quite often weakly struck on obverse 2, and I have seen others the same as mine; in fact yours seems unusually well struck (refer Goubys discussion on the putative Gouby DE obverse, and his obv 2 illustrations). The same issue may of course apply to the tuft of hair, though not to any re-engraving.

Off now for 3 hrs of badminton, then the pub. Got to get my mind off pennies!

Jerry

[secret santa 2,013]

Ummmmm, I see what you mean Jerry - the photo of obverse D in Gouby's Victoria publication is exactly the same as your new D, with those areas "missing".

[Mr T 169]

How about the obverse 2 on 1862 pennies?

[secret santa 2,013]

How about the obverse 2 on 1862 pennies?

Just checked mine and they're the old 2 (D).

[secret santa 2,013]

Hi all,

Any more opinions regarding the 145 tooth F10? Has MG expressed a view, Richard?

I have scoured the net and not found any more.

I still think there has been work in the hair around the nape of the neck. I am attaching images to try and demonstrate this. The first is my 145 tooth F10, then Terry's. Then 143 tooth F10's from Heritage, R Ingrams and LCA. And finally a F15 'Gouby G' revision (138 tooth) without the 'tuft' of hair at the nape for comparison. Your thoughts welcomed.

Jerry

Jerry, I sent Michael pictures of yours and Terry's coins and he was very interested and has read all the posts on the subject. He doesn't seem to think that there's any other significant differences between the 2 obverses but with the caveat that he's only seen photos and much prefers to look at actual coins before making judgements.

Richard

[jelida 1,196]

I shall drop him a line directly, to see if I can arrange for him to examine the coin.

Jerry

[jelida 1,196]

FYO, I attach the images of the new obverse die taken from London Coins website, showing as Terry said that there were at least two (rather fragile) dies for this obverse.

Also a close-up of the nape from this coin. I have not changed my view that there has been a minimal revision.

Jerry

[Mr T 169]

So, just going through and trying to make sense of all this - if the new obverse die is called 2* then the coins that exist are:

1860

2 + B

2 + D

2* + D

1861

2 + D

2 + F

2 + G

1862

2 + G

@rashenly2 do you know if this new obverse die occurs with both reverses D and D* as described by Paul Holland?

[secret santa 2,013]

I have just checked the 4 pictures of the "new" F10 that I have and all 4 have the variety of reverse D with the curved rock line to the shield (D*).

Regarding your die combinations above, don't forget 2+B (F9 mule).

Richard

[secret santa 2,013]

I have just checked the 4 pictures of the "new" F10 that I have and all 4 have the variety of reverse D with the curved rock line to the shield (D*).

Regarding your die combinations above, don't forget 2+B (F9 mule).

Richard

OOOOps, sorry, you did include 2+B !!

[Mr T 169]

Gouby does state that obv 2 has 143, and obv 3 has 138, so that tallies

Where does he say this?

I have just checked the 4 pictures of the "new" F10 that I have and all 4 have the variety of reverse D with the curved rock line to the shield (D*).

Regarding your die combinations above, don't forget 2+B (F9 mule).

Richard

Right you are. I feel like there could still be some undiscovered varieties now...

[jelida 1,196]

Gouby does state that obv 2 has 143, and obv 3 has 138, so that tallies

Where does he say this?

.

Page 36 'The British Bronze Penny 1860 to 1901'

Jerry

[secret santa 2,013]

For interested Penny collectors, I have included details of the new obverse along with many other rare pennies, on a new page on my website, entitled "Varieties That I Don't Have" (but fiercely covet !!!!!)

Richard

[Nordle11 564]

Interested.

Thanks

[pies 33]

As an avid tooth counter (!) you've got me excited . As you say, no other obverse has 145 teeth and yes, I've counted them and I agree with the number. I shall spend tomorrow examining this coin in great detail. I may not be able to sleep tonight.............................

Lordy Lord, you penny collectors!

We are not all like that