marvinfinnley

Ha ha, well perhaps in this instance I will agree about the "scrap" comment. Anyway I'm getting used to 8.1. So OK I will try Firefox. Thanks for the tip.

Strange. In the edit screen, I was able to paste in the picture, but when I saved it, the picture was not there (see above). I have a jpg that's less than 150 kB, but which icon do I use to embed it? There's one that says "link" and one that says "image." Both seem to need a URL. When I put in a URL using the "link" icon, I got, you guessed it, a link to the picture in dropbox. But how to create an inline picture embedded in the post???

Pasting does work! Here is my 1850 half crown: And the reverse:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jj9fmpywpcbdq5l/1850%20HalfcrownPRO_obv-small.jpg?dl=0

I'd like to post some pictures but I don't know how to post them inline in the message. Can someone help me out?

Interesting ... but AU ??? Who are they trying to kid? Not even remotely EF, not even allowing for the differences between UK and US grades! The grade is irrelevant. The scarcity of the token is far more important. Some of you fellows seem to care more about what the TPGs in the USA put on the label than some of the folks over on this side of the pond. I bought the token because it is extremely rare, and it wasn't even noted that it was the Noble specimen. It sold for $290 back in 1998, I purchased it 16 years later for $70. The plastic and grade were not what I was looking at. I purchased the token...not the plastic. If you must know, it was called Nearly extremely fine and extremely rare. in the 1998 Noble auction. So it follows that if "The grade is irrelevant," then if this token were a gorgeous red gem uncirculated with full strike, you still would have gotten it for $70. I think you can follow the line of reasoning there that we all know that the grade is not irrelevant. The TPG only broadcasts it for all to see, quantifying it in a way that allows even unsophisticated buyers to appreciate the coin compared to other "scarce" tokens of the same variety. Grade, in most cases, translates to eye appeal which translates to buyer appeal which translates to higher price. Of course there are occasions where a technically (i.e., number of marks/hairlines/strike quality etc.) high graded coin/token's eye appeal is mitigated by ugly toning, very weak strike, etc. and the high grade doesn't necessarily translate to high buyer appeal. But in general, a coin graded by reputable TPG as an MS66 will sell for many multiples of the same coin graded extremely fine, no matter the rarity. This logic breaks down of course for extreme rarities where there are NO better coins than, for example, an extremely fine specimen. For most coins, the price differences are most extreme at the top end of course. So, for example, I wouldn't be interested in your token as it stands, even for $50, but if it were an MS66RD with brillian luster or gorgeous toning, I most certainly would (and so would many others). I certainly don't intend with this comment to denigrate your purchase as we all collect for different reasons, and there is a segment of the market that would buy this token for $70; it's just a much smaller segment then that which would compete for it if your token were a top-end example, and there would be an even larger segment that would compete for it if it were in a slab as an MS66 (or higher). TPG's exist only to allow a much larger segment of the market to participate in the rare coin hobby by packaging the coins as commodities. Those of us who are knowledgeable realize that this is an imperfect exercise as collector coins, with the exception of the modern mint products, are each fairly unique and difficult to compare. However, the rise of the TPG has allowed a huge number of people to enter the rare coin-high value coin markets with much lower risk that was the rule before the advent of the TPG, and that has been a good thing even for lower value coins. As the top end has gotten more expensive, the lower end has also risen buoyed by those how can't afford the top but feel the excitement generated by the high prices the top end coins bring and want to participate. As they say, a rising tide floats all boats. People who never gave a second thought to old coins as objects of great value take notice. They may begin to collect coins. There are exceptions of course to this for lower value coins that are very common, so my comments will always be debatable in specific circumstances. But of course, that's what makes for an interesting forum. This whole argument is moot of course for those that: a). Collect coins of low value or are experts at authenticating or grading their coins . Never intend to sell their coins or worry about their spouses having to sell c). Insist on a tactile relationship with their coins (implies low value coins or tremendous courage and care in the case of expensive coins) d). would be offended that an impartial third party might judge their coins to be of lesser value than they themselves have judged them >>Posted in good cheer<< Marvin, with all due respect, you are a bit off base. I never said that the grade was irrelevant for all coins or tokens. I said it was irrelevant for this particular token. Why do I say that? 1) I have been looking for an example of this rare token for a good decade, and they simply don't exist in your hypothetical MS66RD grade (and even if they did, I would never buy a 200 year old piece of copper in supposed "red" condition anyway -- I don't care for red copper and have found over many many years of collecting that RED copper is left for the label lovers -- not only is it chemically unstable, it is bound to eventually mellow and all that money you have wrapped up in the TPG hallowed RD designation is down the crapper). If this example was good enough for the W.J. Noble and Myles Gerson collections, then it is good enough for mine. Especially for the scant price of $70. 2) I mostly collect gem or high end MS graded coins. You can see that by my dozens of posted images and coins/tokens in this thread. I am not a newbie nor am I ignorant of the marketing, hype, and ravenous buyers of TPG slabbed coins in the USA market. I don't personally collect for profit, and I don't personally ever pay 5-10 fold for a coin that is graded one point higher by a TPG just because they say it it something special. My eyes are what guide my purchases, not the numbers printed on labels. 3) You happened to pick a token on which to make a philosophical point that I know more about than essentially any other provincial issue. I have 5 examples of the DH-342 Ibberson token, 4 of them in gem condition (of 300 or so extant). I own two examples of the DH-339 Ibberson token, both in UNC condition (of 200 or so extant). This DH-340 token is one of a handful originally minted, and probably one of only 30 or so even recognizable as such. Long story short, I didn't buy this token for the grade NGC gave it, I bought it because I wanted one for my collection. Whether it is a "good investment" is irrelevant to me. I don't collect coins for investment purposes. And, I intend to keep nearly my entire collection intact, to be sold after I die (which I hope will be about 50 years from now). I don't have a problem with TPGs, but I use them as a tool for education and liquidity not as a crutch for blind purchases. I own over 700 slabbed coins currently. But, I never buy a slabbed coin for the supposed gospel that is the grade printed on the label. I buy coins I like, for prices I find fair, and that's all that really matters to me. We have had the TPG discussion ad nauseum here and on the other half dozen coin forums I read daily. Your points are all salient, but just irrelevant for the particular token in question -- i.e, there is no MS66 specimen in existence. I don't know what you call "ultra rarity" but when a token comes to auction about once per decade, it is only my opinion that matters when I choose a less than perfect nEF example (with other problems) for my collection. Cheers. I meant no indictment of your own philosophy - I just thought I'd use your remark to illustrate a point of view that is largely lost in a forum where most folks don't seem concerned about the selling aspect of numismatics. I myself had never sold a coin until a couple of years ago, and that's over a span of almost 60 years of collecting. Now that I find myself with no one to take over my collection after I'm gone, and with a significant investment in the collection, I've had to consider the realities of marketing my coins to others. It's changed my whole perspective. I've learned that selling is MUCH more difficult than buying, that is, if one is trying to maximize the value of the collection. So enjoy your collecting - that's really the fundamental goal.

At auction, as a buyer, at least with a fair auction, you know that the price you pay, whatever it is, isn't very far away from the price another person is willing to pay for the same item. When you buy a coin from a dealer, you know that he's tacking on a substantial overhead to his cost, such that another buyer might be far below what you pay if you had to sell. That's why I'd much rather buy at an auction where there are many people bidding. That's where you get an idea of what the "real" value of a coin is.

Depending on the estimated value of coins a seller brings to auction, the seller's commission could be zero or it could be negative (meaning the seller would get some of the buyer's commission). If the house really wants your collection, e.g., as a drawing card for other submissions, most will "deal" on the seller's side. I personally have experienced this willingness. If you're just auctioning a single coin, and it's not worth all that much, yes you will get hit most likely with a 10% seller's commission. Large house's overhead is substantial. Advertising costs money, and many companies will take your coins around to show them at large shows. On the buyer's side, I would agree that if you are a large and frequent buyer with a company, I would imagine that they would be a bit flexible with you. It's all just dollars and sense for the auction companies. How they can maximize their profits versus their expenses. A company like Heritage, for example, has a huge number of people on the payroll, so they need big sales and lots of expensive coins for their live auctions. The less expensive coins at Heritage are now relegated to internet only sales where I would imagine the costs to the company are less. St. James, having a much smaller operation, can afford to offer more attractive terms to sellers. I think everything is negotiable for the sellers at most companies. I would guess that the seller on the Stacks' Ford sales, which brought in umpteen million dollars probably had very attractive terms.

Interesting ... but AU ??? Who are they trying to kid? Not even remotely EF, not even allowing for the differences between UK and US grades! The grade is irrelevant. The scarcity of the token is far more important. Some of you fellows seem to care more about what the TPGs in the USA put on the label than some of the folks over on this side of the pond. I bought the token because it is extremely rare, and it wasn't even noted that it was the Noble specimen. It sold for $290 back in 1998, I purchased it 16 years later for $70. The plastic and grade were not what I was looking at. I purchased the token...not the plastic. If you must know, it was called Nearly extremely fine and extremely rare. in the 1998 Noble auction. So it follows that if "The grade is irrelevant," then if this token were a gorgeous red gem uncirculated with full strike, you still would have gotten it for $70. I think you can follow the line of reasoning there that we all know that the grade is not irrelevant. The TPG only broadcasts it for all to see, quantifying it in a way that allows even unsophisticated buyers to appreciate the coin compared to other "scarce" tokens of the same variety. Grade, in most cases, translates to eye appeal which translates to buyer appeal which translates to higher price. Of course there are occasions where a technically (i.e., number of marks/hairlines/strike quality etc.) high graded coin/token's eye appeal is mitigated by ugly toning, very weak strike, etc. and the high grade doesn't necessarily translate to high buyer appeal. But in general, a coin graded by reputable TPG as an MS66 will sell for many multiples of the same coin graded extremely fine, no matter the rarity. This logic breaks down of course for extreme rarities where there are NO better coins than, for example, an extremely fine specimen. For most coins, the price differences are most extreme at the top end of course. So, for example, I wouldn't be interested in your token as it stands, even for $50, but if it were an MS66RD with brillian luster or gorgeous toning, I most certainly would (and so would many others). I certainly don't intend with this comment to denigrate your purchase as we all collect for different reasons, and there is a segment of the market that would buy this token for $70; it's just a much smaller segment then that which would compete for it if your token were a top-end example, and there would be an even larger segment that would compete for it if it were in a slab as an MS66 (or higher). TPG's exist only to allow a much larger segment of the market to participate in the rare coin hobby by packaging the coins as commodities. Those of us who are knowledgeable realize that this is an imperfect exercise as collector coins, with the exception of the modern mint products, are each fairly unique and difficult to compare. However, the rise of the TPG has allowed a huge number of people to enter the rare coin-high value coin markets with much lower risk that was the rule before the advent of the TPG, and that has been a good thing even for lower value coins. As the top end has gotten more expensive, the lower end has also risen buoyed by those how can't afford the top but feel the excitement generated by the high prices the top end coins bring and want to participate. As they say, a rising tide floats all boats. People who never gave a second thought to old coins as objects of great value take notice. They may begin to collect coins. There are exceptions of course to this for lower value coins that are very common, so my comments will always be debatable in specific circumstances. But of course, that's what makes for an interesting forum. This whole argument is moot of course for those that: a). Collect coins of low value or are experts at authenticating or grading their coins . Never intend to sell their coins or worry about their spouses having to sell c). Insist on a tactile relationship with their coins (implies low value coins or tremendous courage and care in the case of expensive coins) d). would be offended that an impartial third party might judge their coins to be of lesser value than they themselves have judged them >>Posted in good cheer<<

most European collectors do not care about (or want) TPG anyhow so there will be no discussion I'm glad to find someone who can speak for most European collectors!

I Totallly agree Christoph, its the overgrading to make money amd in turn RIPPING off buyers that gets to me, not everyone is up There in terms of knowing how to grade, it would probably take 10 years before you even got back what you paid for the gold one Might I humbly suggest your experience and the extrapolation to unwary/inexperienced buyers is precisely why third party grading has become so popular in the US. You may be wise enough to question this seller's judgement - as he has a vested interest in high-side grading - but others may not be so careful. (I don't mean to start a whole discussion on the pros/cons of TPG please.)

I know we've had these discussions endlessly, but the markets have spoken, and if you have the kinds of coins that can benefit from an endorsement by a respected third party, and if you want to sell for the maximum price and appeal to the widest range of potential buyers, then I would recommend slabbing. But of course it's up to you. I long ago gave up the desire to "touch" my coins as I've seen too many fingerprinted coins. I get pleasure from learning about the historical context of the coins I own, and from admiring their beauty. And, to answer one question, I am a "fan" for all the reasons I've enumerated. Hammered coins are especially hard to grade to a set of uniform standards as they were subject to a whole range of production issues which cannot be easily described by the numerical grading system. But authenticity is just as important for hammered coins as for milled, so I do think there is a place for an expert opinion if one has high-value hammered coins, and if, and I emphasize the "if" the experts really are expert. Since I don't collect hammered, I don't know how well the TPG handle those coins. You ask "is this a nice coin?" Since I don't know what you mean by "nice," I'm afraid that I can't answer that question. Those that find it appealing might be prepared to pay for it without a TPG if it costs $200. If it is worth potentially $2000, the I think a buyer would be foolish not to insist upon a TPG. It might be a fake, I can't tell, but someone who has studied the series and seen hundreds of the type, as a grader or consultant at a top TPG has, might be able to tell easily. And, as a buyer, if I were interested in the type and had the means to pay $2000 (or more) for the coin, I would want an expert opinion first. It's as simple as that. A TPG is a form of an insurance policy that you are getting full value for your money. You seem pretty confident of your abilities and expect there are others who would agree with your opinion as to the "worth" of the coin, and perhaps you are and they would, but for an expensive coin, the cost ot that "insurance" is a small fraction of its value, so why wouldn't you want the extra degree of confidence for your buyers? Again, if you have low value coins or don't intend to ever sell, then just forget about TPG. I'm not criticizing anyone's decisions, just trying to lay out why a real collector might also be in favor of TPG. I see many times on forums remarks to the effect that only "investors" would slab coins and that true collectors wouldn't. In my opinion, that couldn't be further from the truth. I've been a collector for almost 60 years, have a large library and always take the opportunity to learn about the history behind the coin. I consider myself a collector. So that's it from me, and I promise not to continue these remarks. But the dialogue has been entertaining and educational for me and allowed me to sharpen my thoughts about the subject.

Both PCGS and NGC use two to three graders to determine a grade with an additional "finalizer" if there is a difference of opinion. And you may not agree with the grade assigned. However, my experience is that most of the time, for the two main TPG (I can't speak to CGS), the grade is reasonable within +- one grade. This is a much better situation then before the advent of TPG when buyers were at the mercy of sellers who could grade the coin anything they wanted. When someone has a financial interest in a coin, the tendency is to grade on the high side, sometimes very high side. Ideally, the arrival of TPG has removed this pretty bad aspect of the coin business. I personally, years ago, before the advent of TPG (1970's) bought several coins from a large dealer in NYC. I was inexperienced, and believed the dealer when he told me the coins were "Gem." They certainly looked to my eye like beautiful coins. So I paid a high (at that time) price for them. Only years later did I perchance to examine them with a decent magnifying glass and see the myriad of hairlines on them which, to the naked eye, made them look so reflective at first glance. I doubt they would be given a grade at this point - probably put in a "details" holder. I'm sure the scenario I experienced was replayed thousands of times before TPG.

To be honest, I'm like Jaggy. I see little point in asking CGS to slab any of my coins because it sounds as if their standards mean that few hammered coins would be accepted. Bent, scratched, surface damage, cleaned, edge knocks ... too much scope for rejection to waste my money finding out. Whereas I know PCGS and NGC do slab hammered coins in similar and worse condition than mine. So were I intending to sell a coin in the US this might help get a better price. So for me the only possible reasons would be if I was thinking of selling, or for amusement value to see what grade it might receive. Basically concern about likely rejection (I know relatively it's a small amount of money but I could potentially buy another coin for the price of slabbing two with CGS). Apart from that I don't feel the need for someone else to tell me if one of my coins is nice or not, what they would grade it, or for it to be protected any more than they are at present ... . Well, the TPG are telling others whether your coin is nice or not. You may be perfectly happy with the coin, but if you are interested in selling the coin, others may be more interested in buying if your opinions are confirmed by an outside authority. Would you buy an expensive diamond without a GIA certificate (or whatever the equivalent organization is in the UK)? Would you buy a house without a professional home inspection? Would you buy a used car without taking it to a mechanic to verify it's condition? Possibly in each case YOU would, but most people, would feel better about spending a substantial amount of money if the product they were buying was confirmed to have value which the seller says it has. And again, the amount of money involved is the key. If you coins are low value, you probably don't need to have them professionally graded and authenticated. Remember, authentication is another benefit of the TPG. You may be an expert, but unless you're willing to only sell to other experts, and thereby limit your buyer community, having the coin authenticated and graded is a huge benefit when the value of the coin warrants it.

Exactly. If you have a decent cabinet and don't live right by the sea, neither environmental or "mechanical" (?) damage should be a worry. So you've got your Una and the Lion safely ensconced in your cabinet, and each time you pull out the drawer, perhaps it moves a bit over the wooden or lined surface of the drawer, thereby picking up cabinet friction; or you take it out to admire it occasionally, and you've done it a hundred times with no problems, but just once, you accidentally drop it on your tiled floor. Or your wife thinks it looks a little dusty sitting in that cabinet and cleans it up a bit with a furniture polishing cloth; or, or or.... Then you go to sell it only to see in the catalog description a remark about this or that "rim ding" or "cleaning" or "hairlines" or... How many times have I seen those words in British auction catalogs??? So, sure, if you have a "decent?" cabinet, you don't have to worry.

The "tombs" as you put it, are easily replaced; the surfaces of your coins, not so - hence my point. And perhaps you can store a raw coin in perfect humidity with nary a problem. But it only takes one drop to forever damage a coin. How many old large crowns have you seen with rim dings? As for (as of yet) invisible finger prints lurking only to turn and etch in a few years, if you're concerned about that, a dip in acetone is harmless to a coin's surfaces and effectively dissolves any organic material on the coin's surfaces. Then "entomb" it.

Mechanical damage are things like scratches, bag marks, dents, etc. Environmental are things like pvc damage, water spots, thumb prints (acid from your fingers), chemical damage from reactive liquids or other pollutants in the air, etc.

Reasons to send to TPG: 1. Estimated value is > $1000 AND you intend to sell it at some point (or your heirs will most likely sell it) and desire to appeal to the largest number of buyers to achieve the best price 2. AND You wish to protect the coin from possible environmental or mechanical damage 3. AND its estimated value is condition sensitive such that damage would materially affect its value/appeal to potential buyers Reasons NOT to send to TPG: 1. Low value coin (poor condition, very common, etc.) 2. High value coin AND Don't intend to sell ever and don't worry about potential environmental or mechanical damage So the estimated value of the coin is an important factor. Knowing how to estimate a value involves knowing how to grade as well of course as having a resource to determine value based on rarity and grade. To help make a decision, one should seek out a trusted dealer to evaluate the coin. Personally, I would slab a coin that had great eye appeal even if it was only worth a few hundred dollars in order to preserve it's surfaces. Although if a gold coin, it's pretty stable, but silver and copper are pretty reactive to the atmosphere.

I know where you are coming from, but there are several ways of looking at it. Contemporary ones such as the Weyls with the Jubilee Head portrait come from a period in time when there were a large number of patterns issued, both official and unofficial. Some are more common than others. Taylor restrikes which were also concoctions in some instances, but usually made from Soho dies that were used on official coinage in other instances and so have gained acceptance with the passage of time, though in the latter part of the 19th century were frowned upon in the same was as the modern retro patterns. The Patina and INA things are not contemporary in any way shape or form, combining impossible obverses and reverses and generally looking like bling. Of these, the second and third stand out as commercial ventures. There were 10000(?) ish made of the various types and the market has absorbed them all. The Weyl patterns are too rare to be described as a commercial output along the lines of the other two above. Most appear to be unique with the exception of aluminium pieces, which raises the question as to whether they were made for a specific individual. The obvious name that has been touted around is Murdoch, but the presence of a single example in both the Clarkson and Moon sales in 1901, acquired by Murdoch, sets this argument to rest. It is possible that more than one example of all types exist, but I have not been able to find any evidence other than the duplicates in the Murdoch sale. Taylor's products were considered the 19th century equivalent of the Patina issues, but gradually these were accepted, not least because official dies were the basis for many pieces. These are obviously the most acceptable to the masses because if you have a few Soho currency pieces, it isn't a great leap into the unknown to have a few Taylor pieces as well. However, given the prospect of potentially designing the nation's coins, the late Victorian patterns of Spink, Moore, Weyl etc should be taken as a somewhat more serious exercise and in parallel with the 'official' patterns. Don't forget the popularity of Moore's model pennies in the 1840s when the RM had to publicly disown them. Today, the Royal Mint solicits designs from the public. If they made a trial striking of a runner-up, what would its status be? At the end of the day it is each to their own. Thanks Rob for the overview. It boils down to individual preference in the end. Those that eschew anything except official Mint products of course do not collect tokens - a field that has been immensely popular through the years (as has the collecting of private patterns). Some collectors don't like toned coins. Some like only gold or copper or silver. Who knows. I think that stating publicly that "I do not like this or that" is really not productive. We all have our likes and dislikes. However such statements always make for interesting, hopefully not too heated, discussions. Best

Here, for those that appreciate great coin photography, are a couple of new pictures that I've had taken of a few of my nicest British coins. Coin photography is tricky, so I had a pro do it. 1818 LXIII Crown - one of the finest preserved of the first steam-driven crown coinage of Great Britain. William Wellesly Pole, the master of the mint, took great care in the production and handling of these coins, and the average condition today is quite high. Of course, after two hundred years, a coin in this state of preservation is very scarce. Most have suffered from owners wanting to keep them "shiny" by polishing them (like silverware) if they toned. A coin without many hairlines and with original toning like my coin is a real treasure. 1850 Victoria YH half crown - superlative example (proof?). The 1850 is one of those early half crowns that are so difficult to find in mint state. It had a smaller mintage and is elusive in any condition. Just search Heritage for the 1850, and the best you'll most likely come across is an MS65 1850 that doesn't hold a candle to this coin. Still unslabbed but, according to David Hall (meet the experts at Long Beach show), probably an MS66-67 (or proof?).

Proof 1770 Half Penny PCGS PF66RB. Nicest I've ever seen with color.

Well, one thing, I don't fritter my money away with bunches of small purchases. I save up, sometimes for a year, watch the auctions for really appealing coins that might be in reach, then make a stab and sometimes, one gets lucky. Any coin that has the pzazz or eye appeal to jump out of the catalog at you will do the same for others and therefore has the potential to appreciate in price. But again, judgement is necessary. If there are tons of the coin just like it, then steer clear. The Weyl is one of the esoteric items that many collectors won't bid on because they have no idea what it is. They're so rare that they appear quite infrequently. But the color got to me, and the well-known dealer who was sitting next to me at the auction mentioned that he had never seen the 1887 pattern halfpenny before. So I took a stab and got lucky. Of course there have been many, many times that I was outbid. But sometimes you get lucky at an auction.

By "retro" I'm referring to the "Patina collection."

"Modern rubbish," you mean like the so-called "retro patterns?" Or perhaps the Geoffrey Hearn "patterns?"

The second picture is the Weyl half penny pattern, [VR] to [ER] as listed in Peck (P2192). Rob's research however has shown that each strike is unique in its metal and edge. So this one is the plain edge bronze half penny. It's usually treated as a pattern, not a fantasy, but I can't really define the difference. In truth, it was a private pattern, not an official pattern created by a mint engraver, but it's usually referred to as a pattern (see Peck). As we know, there's been a bunch of "semi" official or private patterns created over the years, including such avidly collected patterns by Moore, Smith, Spink and by Bonomi (the latter two even included in Linecar and Stone's proof and pattern work). So I would opine that "fantasy" is not appropriate for the Weyl patterns. And if this sets up a lively discussion, so much the better!