DrLarry

well it is just I am so used to seeing half cocked things nothing really clear and we have had the discussion before that the P could be a P or that it might be a metal flow on a damaged die or in fact it might be any of the above. Although there is often strange "scaring" at a diagonal which I seemed to find over and over again and had thought that the error was R rather than P....but I often see things that are not there

that is the clearest HALP I have seen well done for the images .....

I would think as a young friend told me last week that if true it would all be rather niche....this way the "madness" viewing the world so differently at least has a broader spectrum of interest...even I find it more interesting but at the same time when one has the ability to observe ones "other world" and see it with such clarity I am sure the real test of sanity will be how I deal with...at the moment is is a little strange. But I also find the intriguing way I see coins to suddenly to have so much more beauty and are less mundane to me and as I have said in this troubling world of division the lion and lambs are quite comforting

Without investing a lot I have it in some overseas coinage but I try not to look too much ...but then I am as nutty as a fruit loaf ...with nuts !!! I had this theory that seemed to make sense at the time that a lot of this was mixed up with the rise of the heraldic orders during the 11th to 13th C culminating in colleges of arms. I tried to make sense of many of the forms by seeing the emblems as abstract forms of the sequences I was finding. so for example the lion is obvious, but the lion with the tongue seemed always to be associated with a negative space that resembled another creature "a lamb" ....Part of the way I saw or see things uses the unremarkable spaces in between i.e negative space. If you look t these spaces (a skill that would be common for an engraver who had reverse perception in design) then they do appear to be much more significant. The issue was that if you only look at the obvious design space i.e the lion that is all you ever see. When I looked at emblems like the Fleur de lys I began to see subtle variation in the design same with subtle variations in lambs each of which when viewed from an alternative perspective could quite easily become something very different ...usually some modification on the lion lamb sequences. I just see a different world one in which I seem to be alone, but this is often the case with any type of neurological issue I suppose (no offence intended). What I was seeking was an order in the apparent chaos and by assigning these complex patterns a place in historical context and within the secrets of the guilds I gave them a sense of reality (in my mind)....it will be an interesting book on brain function if nothing else! of course the moment you see eyes the brain can compute all the things around it to suddenly make sense of the world

yeah there is no hurry and of course this is only an option I am not saying you will like what I list but I will pick one or two out and I will post them up on here for you. I prefer to put them on charity site then at least the money goes direct into their account I sell a lot of my own then gift aid the money back ...they dont pay ebay or paypal fees so it makes it safer for all concerned that way.... If I can't make something out of this obsession then I have done something wrong and to be honest it is more about selling things than keeping things.

I am going to start selling more of my collection for the charity on ebay. I try to raise about £1000 a month for them and I am sure I can take a look and show you some I am going to start listing them on the madaboutartcharity ebay site but happy f you are interested you let me know give me a day or two and I will load up a load of coins. I have far too many of the things and the need is greater than my own and if there really are no lions and Lambs then ...well time to start selling. One of the kids lost his father n October, then brother went to the bush and died of a botched circumcision now last night his mother died .... so I am wanting to raise money for his education costs and enable one of the MADmums to foster him. I detest orphanages and I have to admit that little Ase was always one of my favourites. I make the public statement now that I want to back and make my little contribution. Certainly I have a 2 pence and a one penny you might like I have a half guinea too which I am happy to donate ....this terrible news has galvanised me into action

here is my candidate for something really quite terrible https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Very-bad-condition-only-one-side-viewable/113182323855

The geometry is similar in many of the forms if you use triangle tessellation a lions head can very easily become a dragon, or stag I'm not sure if I have an image

yes I agree I am not sure what trials they put the sequence through with the children in the autistic society I remember them saying that it had been prepared with the support groups involvement but as you say these things can give us a snap shot of understanding

yes although I have to admit even for me I found this vigo sixpence quite convincing with each angle showing a different sequence

yes indeed and I am sure you have pointed it out to your significant other I hope it sings a good song .....perhaps a wren ...careful you dont start seeing wrens on coins !!!

I dont think it was an over-reaction I think if you are in the middle of something then you become more keenly aware of the impact it has on the child's life and the parents and family. There is an incredible new resource I heard of recently available from the autistic society it is a 3D download you add to your phone and you have to wear those funny techno glasses that allow the phone to sit in and it gives a 3D visual and sound perspective of how an autistic child experiences a shopping centre. I think the more resources like that around that give us insight the greater our ability to see the world from more than one single position

None of us has the exact definition or fully understand the full extent of the problem the point to bother about is that you have at least given an alternative contribution and that in itself is important . One can only learn by trial and error what is right and what is wrong.

the spectrum is broad and it's manifestations very variable I know a number of autistic kids with dyspraxia, sauvents, who do not always suffer the same overwhelming sensory overload. It is the definition which the fault here in that some have and some do not have these upsetting characteristics for you and your nephew, I think when searching for mental health descriptions so many are in the dark.

When I started it was the extand design that kept giving me the pattern sequence, it was only really a desire to understand why so many things all over the place seemed to have eyes ...I suppose eyes are at least common to humans and animals so I dint completely drift off into the land of OZ. When I saw a similar pattern in the new coded windows of the new £1 coin showing the same scatter of a pattern broken by a sequence of "slats" which merge into a form I thought I had it . the patterns seemed the same to me whether looking at the extant design as in this 1831 penny Or when I looked at the sweet little Vigo sixpence it seemed all a matter of just angling the camera in the right direction using negative light and the form would come through ....I proposed the blank planchet idea simply because if the whole of the coin face were etched when the die struck the coin the design elements of my pattern would flow around and over the design elements and hence when something similar in the "extant design" picked out the form then the image would be re enforced . It made obvious sense that if you viewed a series of broken pattern at such an angle to allow the "fragments" to merge (the etched design) they were easily observable. Only rarely did a form like the lion Peckris saw and the obvious one in the Vigo sixpence

and I wonder why you all give me such a hard time

True I just wish they wouldn't have eyes and tongues LOL

thanks yes of course I am in no rush

yes I think you may be right, As I posted a while ago on my own thread, I believe that the too close attention to detail ay have created my own neurological disorder as I was in that fluid zone coming out of chemo haze. It does seem to have re-wired that part of my brain that recognises facial pattern but in my case bloody lions and lambs....such a strange theme to have decided upon although I am sure it made sense at the time .....I blame the Lydians for those first coins!!!!!!!!!

no the genie can get back in the bottle. I invoke myself LOL

But at the end of the day it has taken me on a journey and in it's own silly way I saw elements of the design of coins as part of a journey too. In so doing I crossed history and time looked and bought coins and books I would have never dreamed I would own ad taking hundreds of thousands of images which I think now are so beautiful in context to this strange story that I will soon begin to paint them. When I look into them I see something very comforting and I see something very beautiful so perhaps others will see that too. We all go mad in our own unique way this is likely to be my life's work now I will start at the beginning and end up with this ugly modern stuff. LOL

If this was to happen the technology would be pretty simple and would only require one additional intervention at the minting house. Inking a blank planchet (as you would if you were acid etching) the thickness of which would predict the level to which the pattern would be etched or lines incised (with no inked protection). I think if I am not mistaken there are a number of chemical baths used in the coining process from very early times in order to rid the coin of oils or residues or to make the coin presentable for die pressing and distribution. The aesthetic and the practical aspects dealt with by chemical washing and cleaning. We also have to remember if these patterns do exist in coins that many nations have their coins minted by the Royal Mint or other mint houses (SOHO, HEATON given license (contracted by state ) and so if this technology was used then it might exist in overseas coins. In terms of uptake of the system as a security device by subsequent overseas state run mints the device may well have been a shared one. It's purpose if "IT" exists is not to seek an answer to currency counterfeiting in one nation but a adoption by as many as possible which would allow coinage to be exchanged. Really I have come up with some fanciful notions of a shared process and only when this ceases to be a commodity shared (coins) and replaced by more sophisticated notes and security in those is much easier does it remain for its other purposes (if there are any)! The images or themes of the device are not specific to the UK in the most simple format I (in my mind) I have seen it is the juxtaposition of a sequence of Lion heads to lambs heads (and their bodies) and this as an allegorical purpose. I suppose (in my head) I saw the "coin" as a an almost sacred contract one of value and exchange as a state level with the holder of the coin. The use of the theme (I saw) as something more than the practical purpose of a coin and saw the coin on a more esoteric level. By imposing this theme on the coin (as I saw it) a statement of Kingship, power, control, was harmonised by the use of the lamb theme representing the weakest, the sacrificial, the one that needs caring and nurturing and ence I saw this empathic relationship of Lion to Lamb as a representation of the relationship of state (economic and governed) monarch (king or queen) to the people (lambs) in whom this coin was to be entrusted. I had conceived of an idea that would also imbue a coin with a higher purpose and carrying with it these values, reinforcing also a christian iconography embedded into its very fabric. As bizarre as this whole neurological pattern was, I tried to reconcile it with an "essential" aspect of a coin which is as a vehicle for propaganda and to reinforce the religion of the state and the power of the leaders or state to be in control of ,the one fundamental aspect of each nations prosperity ....TRADE. When I first looked at the very earliest coins from Lydia I saw the main feature of a Lion and and a sacrificial animal (ram or calf) and made a connection (which is likely very wrong) but on turning these coins over I saw (in my mind) the "hammer " marks not merely as an abstract punch but with design and that design seem to follow the device I had "imagined". I then traced the use of the image of the coin through history and desired to see a continual flow of state and contract (through coin) with the holder (those who would be the sacrificed, share in the states wealth) . I began to collect coins of all ages and types and tried to search for a repeat pattern (not initially hidden within the fabric of a coin) but subtle disguising of the Lion and Lamb themes and hence I came up with the idea of transmogrification (making the image of a king into a subconsciously held image, innate to man in his/her psyche, of the Lion as the all powerful, one to be feared and predator) and when I looked at coins across the ages I kept on seeing the Lion within each one and the Lamb (hidden as part of the design). It was an intriguing and strange story that gave coins a "value" almost a "sacred" with an enhanced purpose. When I saw it even on modern coins I believed it to be true and still continuing. It is astonishing to me that I can find on almost all the coins I have studied these forms of Lion and Lamb, (scary as well) and whilst it annoyed me at the very same time it was wholly fascinating. What I wanted to see was a coin as something wholly more valuable than just its face value. And so this way of thinking was in some way a long and remarkable story a strange "secret" ( if you like )transferred across time by the money makers driven by empires in an almost constant flow. In one last leap of madness when I saw the changes in coinage form post crusade times, I saw this as a renaissance of this secret and control of heraldic emblems by the 13thC college of arms, and the establishment of the goldsmiths guilds and the trial of the Pyx I tried to connect all these elements. I tried to reconcile it with new knowledge brought back from arab mathematicians along with classical works of Euclid, Pythagoras contributing to a kick start of early european re-birth thinking as it is very unlikely that without the muslim/christian conflicts old texts previously lost would never had reached us. The way the pattern worked seem to show tessellation and geometry combined. It was a somewhat silly and fairy tale approach to global history, trade, economics, state controls, and later on kingship and christian iconography. Ridiculous of course but it all made perfect sense to me (in my post chemo haze mind) Oh the power of the mind when it is right or when it goes wrong. I was searching for something that illustrated that there was something in common in this fractured world and this was my convoluted construction so whilst the world seemed wholly ready to divide I was seeking a story that keeps us human rather than one nation one religion, one group in confrontation with another. The lion Lamb idea was one of beautiful empathic simplicity and so perhaps I need to write all this up for the purpose of just recording the strange effect that a simple hobby can have on a mind in a time when it fears division. Yes I know I am MAD!

What has to be remembered is that this pattern started to form in my mind under a specific set of circumstances. I was , at this time , using coins as a vehicle to get my braIN WORKING again in a post chemotherapy haze. My brain had become dysfunctional and was no doubt very fluid. At this time over a period of two years or so I had very little interaction with other people. In the process of using the coins under the microscope it may well be that the normal process of pareidolia were replacing this pattern which I was constructing over and over again with the "normal" pattern which would be facial recognition. I re-enforced this by drawing the images and making interpretations which may have again made the pattern stronger "in my mind". So it is possible that it has established a neurological pattern in the part of the brain involved in facial recognition and hence I see it quite clearly even without the microscope now and the pattern complexity derived from my previous ability to recognise patterns as part of my work. It may well be that my brain has now been re-wired, this I would accept is a distinct possibility. I have no desire to be controversial I simply set out to describe a phenomena I was recording every day. If this is the case and I accept that it may be the explanation then my mind has created an extremely bizarre association or sets of association and I haven't a clue from where it gathered this information as I have no affiliation with this devices themes. In doing what it does I have created a three dimensional projection which has rotational symmetry and a complex interweave. In seeking the simplest answer , that the pattern exists in the coins as I was taught to do as a scientist I relied on collecting date empirically trying to make sense of anomalies in the designs on coins as I have mentioned in other postings, (Britannias Hand and the lost design elements; understanding flaws in the bronze series) all of which seemed to indicate two possibilities "in my mind" either alterations to the dies or a repeat pattern which is the topic of this thread. It may well be that I have a neurological disorder now brought on by looking too hard and trying to make sense if this is the case then it is in itself interesting only to me. What it has given me however is an innate ability to spontaneously create patterns in nature and use this in art and if nothing else it has turned me into a computer that translates pattern into form for which I suppose I should be eternally grateful.