terrysoldpennies

Yes Pete I hurriedly read Santa's post , and I can see a difference , the size of the holes . The narrower one has both centre holes of a similar size , but with the wider date type the top hole is smaller than the bottom one. I cant personally see anything else .

Iv just realised a way to tell the difference between the types , its by the centre holes , on the straight crossover type the holes are almost circular , where as on the normal type its misshapen.

Below is a picture of other examples i have of the two types , plus the normal common type

It seems to me that if its that hard to tell the difference , then it doesn't really matter so long as no damage has been done to the coins surface

I'm not sure is this a wavy 2 ??

Any chance of a picture

Ive found three different 9s so far first a narrow 9 second a 9 with a large centre hole third a 9 with a small centre hole

As was I . with the scratches and the ware on the obverse, I thought it topped out at a very good price

Did any of you see this ?, one more for Richards list. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GREAT-BRITAIN-1-PENNY-1860-/254645349749?hash=item3b4a0bad75%3Ag%3AHQEAAOSwsZNfAnAR&nma=true&si=z6GrCvsS9JK3A8LsBViLEFQYn8A%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Sorry Michael , forgot to add the picture, senior moment

I couldn't resist this one a few weeks back 2£ free postage , what could have been, but for some vandal

Is your wife's name Suzette

Another way to distinguishing this type I have noticed is by a couple of cracks running through the word VICTORIA , and as they appear on the top and bottom crack across the date type, and on the examples with the single crack running along the bottom of the date, it may be the case that the Victoria crack precedes the cracks through the date , and as such it may be a good feature to look out for in finding a very early example of this 8 over 2 type

your Roses are a lovely colour , looks good and a great chill out spot.

If its a girl I definitely don't fancy it .

That really is the big question most of us have asked, how are they formed . Freeman himself at first thought that the 1897 dot was so regular and round that he considered it might be an identity mark, as can be seen on some of the Australian coins, and so he gave it its own F no. F147 and later found out about a crack on an example in the vicinity of the dot. I wonder if the initial crack on the die has a second side crack appear off at an angle to it , maybe to small to show on the coin , but allows a small corner piece to brake away where the two join and leave a hole , this I guess would be triangular in shape, but I think it would start to fill in at the corners rounding off the triangular shape into more rounded hole which would then transferred onto the coin more like a dot. many of the dots I have found are irregular in shape, see below. As to whether the perfectly round dots are created by the engineers trying to extend the life of the dies , i'm as much in the dark as you.

Is this the page your looking for dot pennies - British Coin Forum - Predecimal.com.url 1897 penny double dot serifs - Confirmed unlisted Varieties. - British Coin Forum - Predecimal.com.url

So you left the two easy ones till last.

On the 1897 F147 dot type I have never personally seen an example with a crack, but Freeman mentions that an example has been seen . So I assume that an example showing a crack is rare.

Ive used the Copper wire pick myself, it works really well and does not scratch the surface at all.

Its funny a short while back I remember Mike showing us his new found f164 and saying just how hard it is to find one above EF , and I must admit I was thinking at the time that my own example was only about VF, then low a behold this turns up . A few bag marks , but for £23 .

yes its an F21, well done

I think your right Richard , there really are lots of types .

I see that the rotated 9 type you've posted Ian is a 15 tooth example , I also have a similar one with 14 teeth , the bottom one of the group of three Blakey , is the raised up 9 type that your after, the one below , its the 14 tooth type listed by Gouby. There are two other 14 tooth types that ive come across , the bottom one in the group of three pictured has the normal digit spacing with the slightly rotated 9, and the third type on the last coin below, which has the 9 and 8 very close like the raised 9 type, but has all the digits in a straight line , its not listed by Gouby

This one is on an F33 , so unusual for this combination of dies.