colonialjohn

See my weekly GENUINE contemporary circulating counterfeits from my upcoming book via Amazon Books "Forgotten Coins." EBAY Seller: johnmenc John Lorenzo United States

Kal - I should have you as an editor to review my English CCCs for my upcoming book "Forgotten Coins". It looks modern to me or something made later outside the regal mint. Its TOO PERFECT? However, I have never seen this form of a Contemporary Circulating Counterfeit. Debased silver with copper - does not appear to be silvered ... INTERESTING. John Lorenzo Numismatist United States

I cover some of these in my upcoming book "Forgotten Coins." Look at the "R" I see som surface peeling and what is the weight to regal. A picture is generally not enough to confirm silver silvering over a copper core. See Amazon Books in about a month. John Lorenzo Numismatist United States

Have a nice grouping this Sunday night on EBAY. Seller: johnmenc All at a $9.99 start. U.K., German States, Spanish/American, Spain, etc. My new book "Forgotten Coins" via Amazon Books with over 1,000 counterfeits of the period (i.e., not Modern Chinese Forgeries) will be out very soon. Probably first week of December 2017. John Lorenzo Numismatist United States

These coins show nice original patina. No need to clean. Cleaning is normally use to remove green oxidation off of copper alloy coins. When you sell coin experts (for lack of a better term) can spot brushed coins. Coin cleaning on these low grade coins can also create a situation where you are just brushing dirt particles in/around the surface of the coin creating hairlines. Leave it alone ... John Lorenzo Numismatist United States

A good U.S. reference I use on a frequent basis when someone in the U.S. is interested since you are from Indianapolis, Indiana is Julia Purdy who is Chullie which is her E-Bay ID. As you may know she sells a lot of low end copper both U.S./U.K./World and enjoys the product but did state on that red or orange DEEP verdigris I guess John I was asking too much of your product. LOL. Yes you were ... Talk to her if you wish being from the U.S. on the product's pro's & con's. The product was made as strong as possible and yet not to impart any residue, no water rinsing necessary or IMPACT to the copper's cartwheel effect on UNC red copper coins - AT ALL ... so this is the comment I usually get relating to its limitation. But if the copper oxidation is not advanced and deep and is superficial ... then IMO its worth a try. Start with Red Lincoln Cents and work your way up ... and remember for large amounts of green verdigris use multiple cleaning Q-Tips (I recommend Johnson & Johnson Safety Swabs for infants) to avoid imparting surface hairlines under a jewelers loop. If you actually tried the product thanks for your faith in me and hope it solves some of your cleaning woes with copper. JPL

... which is why I sent a FREE bottle to Paulis ... a noted top numismatist in the U.K. and on this forum channel and in this post thread. He is my U.K. reference point ... consult with him first privately ... then decide. I have cleaned >$1,000 U.S. copper coins with my product. I understand your FEAR and HESITATION and DOUBT. $45 is a lot ... but if you have that medal or coin and feel this product is worth a gamble ... I invented this product indirectly through company knowledge and for my own needs. I have only sold around 40 bottles. JPL

Verdi-Care is just a protectorant. A type of oxidation preventative type sealant product with minimal cleaning capabilities. Its useful therefore in a post-cleaning operation to prevent further oxidation build-up due to chlorine and sulfur intrusion ... JPL

Although I have all the prerequisites IMO such as a M.S. Chemistry, 15 years+ in industrial cleaners with some product development, 40 years in Numismatics and a world authority on U.S. Colonials - particularly in copper coinage (i.e., New Jersey Coppers), etc. ... I agree ... its a waste of time in this debate with 99.99% of collectors but I interject occasionally for my own amusement. Be that as it may ... However, knowing the sensitivity of copper and knowing the general make-up of the best copper cleaner ever invented (i.e, original Coin Care and its secret ingredient Freon TF) I have surpassed this mixture (I believe) with my new product. I sent a bottle FREE to Paulus ... however ... I believe what happens is due to the sensitivity of copper the product if you will has to have a neutral pH (i.e., 7.0) and its a solvent emulsion type cleaner which of course by its nature is superior to any raw solvent like xylol, olive oil (yes - crude mixture) and acetone and other stand alone solvents. I currently work in the Military business and recently Freon TF (December, 2013) was banned by the USEPA for the remaining few businesses which were allowed to use it - it was banned 20 years ago for U.S. non-industrial manufacturing consumers due of course of Freon TF to its ozone effect in the atmosphere. We (current company) needed to come up with a substitute MIXTURE to effectively clean soft metal alloy parts similar in capability to Freon TF for military aircraft. So what most persons using my product have said it works great but I wish it was stronger. But you see the issue - it was made strong enough as not to damage the cartwheel effect on a choice UNC copper alloy coin hence its great ability on superficial green oxides on all metals including sensitive copper. I do understand one needs to be careful in moving soils around on the surface of the coin - I do understand that most people will not appreciate the limitations of a product strictly made for a copper surface - so I really advertise this or give this to seasoned collectors who want to gamble. Hence my $25/bottle tag. My product has passed PCGS/NGC inspection so to speak ... Talk to Paulis ... JPL

There is no greater debate in numismatics ... to clean or not to clean ... and if so ... how Forum God. LOL

ooopppss ... message was for PWA 1967. PWA 1967 talk to Coinery if you like it ... remember its geared primarily for copper based alloys. Would not send it to UK at this price if it was not something VERY DIFFERENT. Good luck if you proceed. JPL

OK. Coinery. Its $45 which covers the approximate $20 P&H of the small box. You can E-Mail me with questions. Talk to your UK buddy in this thread who received a free bottle. Works PERFECTLY on superficial green oxidation and was designed for sensitive copper substrates. No impact to the cartwheel effect on Proofs or UNCs. The only color change you will see is on patina removal so use only to remove oxides. Has the same make-up as the old U.S. Coin Care which was banned 15-20 years ago. Yes - that's me giving the BM my latest book on contemporary circulating counterfeit EIGHT REALES to the left (i.e., picture profile). So what! - Can you make the ultimate copper cleaner? You are doubting John Lorenzo? Good luck with it ... remember careful on moving soil particles around and use only when necessary (i.e., to remove green oxides). Not designed for heavier deeper copper oxides since its substrate safe. Works INCREDIBLE on 19thC copper or bronze medals. John Lorenzo Numismatist United States johnmenc@optonline.net PayPal: johnmenc@optonline.net (same as my E-Mail). JPL

Just checked by PayPal history and no record was found. johnmenc@optonline.net check this E-Mail carefully and your own PayPal history. JPL

I put in some recommendations. It has a strong non-hazardous orange odor so discard all cleaning tissues and the like after cleaning your coins. Best on green light verdigris. Confirm it has no effect on the cartwheel effect for Mint State Coins. Be negative - but realize it was strictly made for copper alloys as to not change any differences to the surface. No one has disagreed that after cleaning the coin it passes the people at the slab companies (NGC,PCGS,ANACS). Realize to use many Q-tips and such as not to create hairline scratches. I find this cleaner valuable therefore on circulation type coins whether $1 or $10,000 IMO. If you own a 19thC bronze medal try it on this type of issue and be astonished! LOL. BTW - the picture in my profile was when I visited the BM in 2013 and presented the BM my book I did with Robert Gurney on the Spanish/American Counterfeit 8 Reales currently being sold on Amazon Books both in the U.S. and U.K..

I have not received any money yet. I did send a bottle to Paulus (complimentary) - maybe its still in route? John Lorenzo United States

I will calculate the difference and send U.S. cash with cleaner. If you have any 19thC or older Bronze Medals it works INCREDIBLE on this type of numismatic item. You can try light green verdigris on Proofs but careful and use multiple Q-Tips. I will supply some special Safety swabs geared for infants. Use in a well ventilated area due to the strong orange odor (non-hazardous). Throw out all tissues or Q-tips to remove orange odor source. Consult with Paulus on any negative items. If the copper patina is attractive obviously leave alone and of course fine with brass, bronze and other soft metal alloys. Try on some current U.K. pence until you are comfortable. Close cap after use as it evaporates somewhat like acetone. E-Mail me with any concerns - johnmenc@optonline.net John Lorenzo United States

... or is it Paulus ...

Julia Purdy's E-Mail is jpurdy382@gmail.com Just ask she can send you the photos. JPL

I sent a free bottle to Paulis on this chat room so he can report results and possible post before/after pictures. If you know Julia Purdy her E-Bay name is chullie and is one of my better customers who uses the product to clean her coppers before posting to E-Bay. She presented photos to people on local Yahoo Chat Rooms. Contact her via Ebay and she can send the photos. Its $35 NOT 35 pounds! Please ... LOL.

To send to the U.K. its $35.00 which includes postage. U.S. its $25.00. PayPal E-Mail is johnmenc@optonline.net John Lorenzo Numismatist United States

Well my 8 oz. sample is heading to Paulis tomorrow of the U.K.. So drop him an E-Mail if you are curious for his evaluation. Most people like it but some people not knowing surface chemistry or chemical ingredients of industrial cleaning products usually remark ... not bad on surficial green oxidation but on ancient coins for example which were buried, etc. LOL. My product will NOT impact a copper Proof surface or the cartwheel effect of an UNC copper. So the product was taken to the limits of cleaning a copper surface but not going beyond the point of altering its surface (i.e., tone, etc.). I really only give this to top numismatists that are in a need. I developed this about 2 years ago and sold maybe 40 bottles in the U.S. to friends of mine who are avid copper collectors and were looking and believed in my capabilities as my real job was previously an industrial R&D chemist and now I am a safety/environmental manager. In the U.S. when collectors talk about the best coin cleaning product its the same denominator - Coin Care (THE ORIGINAL). The original had Freon TF now a banned substance in the consumer market and now as of December, 2013 with USEPA its banned in ALL businesses as its no longer able to be sold in the U.S.. Nothing cleaned copper safer & better. Still not sure why I am giving Paulis a free sample - perhaps some rich guy sitting in the back row of a Spinks auction will buy some 10,000 pound copper pattern from the 14thC and say ... what me worry ... I have JPL's Coin Care. Its now worth 25,000 pounds after its restoration. It could also be your title ... <VVBG> JPL

Every collector has his own opinion on cleaning. However I would be on this channel 24/7 debating/agreeing/questioning each collector's opinion. Be that as it may ... in terms of taking any cleaning procedure to a Mint State or Proof coin is highly questionable as every cleaning operation has the remote possibility of inducing hirlines under magnification to the surface. It should be done only if the coin has no real value (i.e., $$$ < 100) or the surfaces are extremely poor. I agree with you acetone is probably my choice as the most economic. Some better options are xylol or even olive oil for particualrly long dwell times. A noted large cent collector (his Million Dollar collection being auctioned off soon - don't want to use names here and now) uses olive oil and a toothpick to remove strong verdigris such as copper oxides other than green and surficial. But to me this is messy and questionable on its effectiveness. I gave him a bottle. He liked it but was used to his own methods. Whatever ... Other than the price ($20-25) no one has disliked my product. In terms of your response just this one time - your imparting noticeable hairlines possibly on Mint State/Proof coins - not sure if you are damaging the CARTWHEEL EFFECT - I do have to question the notion you clean ALL your coins. Personally - I would never touch 200-300 year old patina on even a $10 coin if it was free of green verdigris. Any other alloy the point is moot. Good luck ...

Additional note - I developed this cleaner "STRICTLY" for the sensitivity of copper coin surfaces. Of course not - no effect on copper spots on Proofs or figerprints. Strictly for green verdigris and other light soils. The main goal was to make it as strong as possible and yet have no surface effects on the copper's original surface. John Lorenzo

I am sending a bottle of my JPL Coin Care to Paulus of U.K.. He can give his own opinions. I do here that U.K. numismatists have a hard time getting stuff like the original Coin Care made in California (everybody today - some bottles have gone to $250, Verdi-Care, etc. - due primarily with Verdicare that its expensive to buy due to shipping, etc.. but this material is really a coin preservative as it leaves anti-oxidant type film on the surface of the coin preventing further oxidation. So its Christmas time ... a free bottle to a serious U.K. collector. Not sure if this can really help anyone but a product that can remove green surficial slime off a high copper rarity and leave NO SURFACE EFFECTS that it was cleaned. Is that worth $40? Surface effects other than if you remove 200 years of patina there will be a VISUAL change but NO EFFECT on the copper ITSELF. Sure - its safe on silver ... if it has no effect on a more sensitive copper surface. Shipping is probably $20.00. I usually sell them for $20 here to the Yanks. LOL. We shall see ... Paulus ... be CRITICAL. Sending it tomorrow with instructions for use. In the interim ... Long live the use of Acetone in the U.K. ... hey ... its cheap but the real question is can it get past a grading service as never being cleaned or a Spinks cataloger .... for that matter. John Lorenzo United States

Wait a minute! Acetone never turns a coin bright or white. Well not on circ. coins ... try on BU copper ... report. JPL