PWA 1967

Well done Jerry and what i like about the forum ,pointing things out and helping others ........Hat off 👍

I looked at that and even sent a link to a friend as the 5 looked like it was over something on the ebay picture ,both of us did not notice the dot ,so well SPOTted 😀👍

Yes i remember it ,i only mentioned it as often people seem to be buying coins from pictures for quite a lot of money and in this case there was only one side 😀 I also asked for the pictures ,so they probably sent the same ones. So long as the buyer is happy that is all that matters and beginners dont just pay a good few quid from a picture of just one side.

I hope the buyer viewed it in hand and did not just buy it from the OBV picture 👍

https://www.londoncoins.co.uk/?searchlot=804&searchtype=2&page=Catalogue Much better description and now in LCA 👍

One indicator i have just noticed looking at the pictures ,is the tide on D is above a tooth but on E directly to one.

I dont know if anyone reading this or a forum member has this 1909 F169 that was sold as part of the workman collection. I have been studying some paperwork and after someone using some software it was the first one discovered by Michael Freeman. I have some pictures and notes and the coin i believe was also used and pictured in Coin news in July 1971, this i dont have but i have an old black and white picture which we used. There are tiny microscopic differences to the pictures which probably happened over the course of the 45 years it was in a collection or the difference between one picture and another ,however all the main marks match up exactly on the software which gave a reading of 98.6% being the same coin. Michael Freeman records that he found it himself and was the only one known at the time. The coin wasnt sold in the workman sale with any provenance but thought the person who has it now may wish to know ,if they dont already.

I assume its the same as on the CGS website described as 8 Broken top and bottom ,although they have other date varieties for 1822 Farthings ,so must of been repaired numerous times.

Its a different style IMO ,its fatter and the ends not the same.

victoria penny 1892/1 Not recorded Very Rare Better In The hand High Grade | eBay 😮 😂

The descriptions for each reason have always been there and most collectors familiar with them , they were also then put in the terms and conditions which people signed before they sent them.People signing the paperwork when things changed were made fully aware of the service they provide and the one word for a rejection , therefore they did not expect anymore for the price they were paying Corrosion ,Verd ,Damage ,Fake ,Altered etc.............This one word i think is enough for the majority of people and the TPG are not going to agree to an after service for every coin sent to them or more information in writing for the same fee. I might not of explained myself very well being thick as rather than individual reason ,i should of put definition for each rejection is on the website 😀

Yes your right all the grading companies could do more and give more of a reason ,although with regards value for money £12 ,£16 and £26 including vat i think is. I send them for a numerical grade and to be put in plastic to confirm the grade and take pictures should it be re sold ,that is what they say they will do for the price and what i pay for. Coins that are rejected are not given a numerical grade and returned with a reason ,these reasons are explained in more detail on the website as it wont fit on the slab. With regards how much effort to provide a properly worded reason for something not offered , it does not sound much to what may be a couple of lines ,although every coin is obviously different and they did not offer the service of a report or properly worded reason to describe the problems in great detail , just to either give it a numerical grade or reject it.Not many are rejected for something that is unusual like the one mentioned and pictured ,however if every coin rejected for other reasons ( of which there are thousands of coins ) after 2/3 graders looked at it i feel sure the price would go up , were would this information go on a seperate typed out email or letter perhaps ,how much aggravation would it cause if six parts of the coin with problems were mentioned and one part not or vice versa . If the price goes up then most people would be paying extra for a report or information they did not need or want in the first place. My own experience when i have asked for help and an explanation on rejects i had was way over the service i originally paid for and i was really greatful. What i said was either way they cant win if they dont charge for rejections as people may think its not been rejected because they dont get paid. I think the answer would be if you would like a full report the price would be £XXXX or alternatively dont send it and show it a dealer or put pictures on the pre-decimal coin forum 👍

Thats 100% right IMO they are basiclly saying that in their opinion its not maybe right or has problems and dont try to re - sell it as being ok with our name on the slab.

Good point Ian ,although i think it could go on forever and then not only would it not fit on the ticket ,2 or 3 peoples opinion would need to be typed on. One grader might think its been altered in another part aswell etc ,so its either Altered or not.Like cleaned is cleaned or damage is damage etc. ,not exactly on the coin which could be numerous parts. I think the Florin pictured probably was as although i dont have a clue about them the other 30 ish they have graded were all ok ,so not a flaw thats on others and maybe a difference. I may be wrong just as they might of been and if so the coin gets broken out ,still the same coin that you sent them and not cost much for people to have a look at. The problem is if you dont learn and keep buying them with the same faults after showing the coin in hand to someone else who may confirm CGS were right. I only buy and used to collect pennies ,so dont have a clue about rejections for any silver coins. Either way CGS dont do them anymore and i hope with NGC they find some problems with mine i send so i know they are doing a good job ,maybe if they do i can query the rejection with them should i need to 🙂

The cost was £12 / £16 and the opinion given. If they didnt charge for rejections ,maybe people would then be saying....They have not rejected it because they dont get PAID unless they say its ok....Cant win 😀 With regards letting the customer know the reason in more depth i think the majority of the time you could tell if they had a second look ,cleaned ,scratched ,damaged,fake etc.Although if not then it was easy to just phone them up and ask for a quick explanation. Again this is a service that was provided in my opinion very cheaply and no doubt they could of perhaps done more ,maybe then though people would of said they are charging to much ,when they put the prices up. No matter what they do or the opinion they give you wont please everyone if you are honest ,maybe people dont like finding out that someone else does not think its as good as they do or annoyed they missed a problem that someone else spotted.More often than not the people who have not been happy is because the grade was strict or the coin rejected ,they are then not happy with the opinion and service and maybe dont use them again ,rather than learning from the opinion. Its an opinion and people who dont want it dont send them ,could not be more simple. Maybe the perfect business model is to just grade everything really high ,dont reject any and dont charge anything ,although even then maybe some people would not be happy. I as many others have , been sending them to NGC and after sending coins to another company for years feel i am comfortable in the grade and condition before i send them ,but will be the first to admit that if something comes back that i missed and only saw after then i was wrong and know they are providing the service i asked for.

https://www.londoncoins.co.uk/?page=Pastresults&searchterm=Pennies+Cleaned&searchtype=1 Some more pennies for anyone interested ,some with artificial (chemical dip ) lustre colour.

Yes i agree as i mentioned its often hard to tell from a picture ,although you have years of experience and knowledge ,its beginners that are mostly buying them. Pictures is what most of us buy from and new collectors when they receive the coin are not sure what to look for even when they have the coin in hand. Without a second opinion they will then as a forum member messaged me last night / this morning told me just put them away ( as he did ) and only find out when they come to sell them or show them in hand to someone else. Its hard to be sure at first ,although a step in the right direction ,if new collectors have some guide lines to follow. I know or have read on here (BIll pugsley CGS ) people being really dissapointed when they come to sell some that they are not perhaps as good or worth as much as they thought. Plenty people have sent them to a TPG only to find out months after buying them the coin was cleaned / re toned and i dont know anyone personally who did not agree when the pointers were explained to them.Some may not agree and say the TPG does not know what they are doing ,although i feel thats more in disappointment they have been shown something and thought they knew better. I have not got any other pictures of cleaned / re toned coins as i have either returned them ,thrown or given them away ,sometimes to forum members. ............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................ https://www.londoncoins.co.uk/?page=Pastresults&searchterm=Cleaned+Penny&searchtype=1 A sample of ones that LCA have listed as cleaned that i mailed to a forum member which helped him and hat off to LCA and recently DNW for making people aware before bidding.

You will probably be better to try NGC rather than NCB 😀 👍

Years ago when i first started collecting and didnt know any better i sent some coins to CGS and was the best thing i ever did as made me learn about coins that had been cleaned and retoned.They were rejected as cleaned although they were toned and i did not have a clue or understand what it meant or why and then spent hours with dealers ,graders and cleaning /re toning some low grade ones ,so i could see the results in hand. The majority of times a coin has been cleaned and then re toned the coin will be an unatural colour as the cleaning has altered the surface.I consider a coin cleaned if the metal has been altered either by Chemicals or damaged caused by abrasion.Coins IMO washed in warm water or bits taken off with a cocktail stick carefully you would not be able to tell as its not damaged the surface. Although only pictures which often IMO is like grading and much harder to tell...............I have just tried to download them and was unable to 😂 Maybe someone is able to put the pictures up please for three pennies UIN 32575 ,32578 and 37644.They may be of know interest to people who know what to look for but might help a new collector or save them a few quid.Bronze go Pink ,brown ,purple or even white and Copper Pink ,purple or black.....Ish colour as depends how much the coin has retoned.The colour can often be blotchy or speckled as the cleaning has changed the metal unevenly. Its an opinion but better to have one than just assume everything is ok. I should also mention the copper penny was sent on behalf of a forum member ,hope thats ok 😀

"mingin " 😂

One i bought NOT attributed off a dealers website ,he is a good friend ,so did tell him what it was but happy to sell it me 👍 They are easier to spot with the other indicators ,die crack to the left of DEI and a wider I in Gratia. Dont see many in a decent grade 1848 /6.

I think its probably worth phoning or sending an email to the Royal mint museum Dave or phoning them to ask who to send the enquiry to. Probably got a better chance of an answer from them than on here 👍

It means have a look at it before bidding as we dont think its right or cleaned but not as bad as the others 😀 They would not say it if the coin looked ok ,so either unnatural or altered surface / finish ?

Yes the 1864 was a good buy ,i know who bought it and the 1849 seemed cheap going off the picture.

Unless the cleaning is blatantly obvious its going to be an opinion and what i might think is cleaned someone else not and vice-versa. The more people think it is cleaned the less buyers you will have when you come to re-sell it and if a dealer thinks it is cleaned then not going to offer as much ,if anything at all for one single coin.Auctioneers will often let the buyers decide(buyers opinion ) and why Erics point of getting a second opinion from someone who can see it in hand is so important ,especially if its a coin thats going to cost a few quid.You dont want to pay a lot for something that others may not agree with in the future. There are thousands of coins bought and sold every year that SOME people may think are cleaned or alternatively not (especially from a picture ) ,thousands of coins are rejected by a TPG because there opinion was the coin was cleaned ,i am sure most if not all are (broken out) in someones collection and the buyer happy. Make your own opinion by learning the tell tale signs is important ,let someone else look at in hand or just leave it alone if you cant form your own opinion before spending good money at auction. Auctions though such as the DNW one mentioned i take my hat off too ,as they have a strong opinion that the coin / coins are cleaned and if you buy them and then not happy its your own daft fault. I would bet money that almost everyone IMO 😀 has a cleaned coin in there pre-decimal collection which wont make much difference to the value ,but if you dont learn the signs it could be easy to have a boxfull that a high percentage of buyers dont want due to a different opinion. My opinion only 😀