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secret santa

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Posts posted by secret santa


  1. Perhaps Secret Santa is playing games with us all, and the Elf tree is where he grows his ‘wonderland’ pennies.

    I have already sent him my Christmas ‘wish list’ letter, and can’t wait until the big day arrives………..but please no chocolate coins this year………..just your 1843DFF would make me very happy!

    Are you sure you've been a good boy ?????


  2. The coin in the next LCA sale is a F192A

    The thumbnail I posted above is the only known specimen of a 1922 with "true" 1927 reverse.

    Do you know its origins? Given that it looks well circulated I'm thinking there may be others out there.

    When I bought it at LCA a few years ago, someone there told me it had been found in a dealer's bowl !!!! So it had been around since issue, probably, and no-one had noticed that it has an ME obverse as well which is the most striking thing about it. So there may well be more.............................


  3. A few years ago someone put up an 1877 F90 narrow date on Ebay, labelling it as such, but starting it at 99p as he didn't know it was rare. I contacted him out of selfish reasons, as I wanted to bid on it and I knew that some people would offer him a few hundred quid for a quick sale. I told him it was worth at least £3k and ended up winning it but it cost me a small fortune !!!


  4. I'm afraid I'd have to disagree with you Rash, all the normal markers are pointing to it being one. What can you see we can't? Londoncoins seem to think it's one too and it wouldn't be good for them to be selling this for ££££ if it's not legit.

    As jelida said, it's the proto-1927 reverse, not the real 1927 reverse (Freeman didn't distinguish between the two).

    The four different 1922-dated pennies are:

    Freeman 192: 3+B/Gouby C+b

    Freeman 192A: 3+C/Gouby C+c

    Freeman -: 3+C/Gouby C+d (the proofs for the 1924 proof sets)

    Freeman 192B: 4+C/Gouby D+d (the one secret santa is referring to, first mentioned at http://www.predecimal.com/forum/topic/9753-1922-penny-with-1927-reverse-confirmation/?p=125335)

    I hope I got that all correct!

    Mr T, I think you are right about your last two examples, but "all" reference books refer to the F192A, as the 1922, with 1927 Reverse. The F192A is very rare. but the other (last) two examples you mention are almost unobtainable. I think the F192B might be the "Specimen" 1922/27. (not sure though, as I have never seen one, unless the recent Heritage auction example was one.) :)

    Not quite - Gouby in his book The Bronze Coinage of Great Britain differentiates between the reverse on 1922 F192A (which Freeman calls the reverse of 1927) and the "true" reverse which is found on 1927 onwards. Gouby labels the 2 reverses c and d respectively whereas Freeman refers to them both as reverse C. There are significant differences (well, significant to penny collectors anyway), prinicipally in the number of border teeth and the depth of the exergue.

    The coin that started this topic is a normal 1922 F192.

    The coin in the next LCA sale is a F192A

    The thumbnail I posted above is the only known specimen of a 1922 with "true" 1927 reverse.

    Historically, F192A has generally been described as having a 1927 reverse but, pedantically, it's not correct.

    Clear as mud, probably !!!

    Needless to say, I wasn't quite right - the 1922 proof has the 1927 reverse as well !!!! RLC35's list is absolutely spot on.

    Time to shoot myself - Gouby's book is The British Bronze Penny (I'll lie down now and stop posting nonsense !!!!)


  5. I'm afraid I'd have to disagree with you Rash, all the normal markers are pointing to it being one. What can you see we can't? Londoncoins seem to think it's one too and it wouldn't be good for them to be selling this for ££££ if it's not legit.

    As jelida said, it's the proto-1927 reverse, not the real 1927 reverse (Freeman didn't distinguish between the two).

    The four different 1922-dated pennies are:

    Freeman 192: 3+B/Gouby C+b

    Freeman 192A: 3+C/Gouby C+c

    Freeman -: 3+C/Gouby C+d (the proofs for the 1924 proof sets)

    Freeman 192B: 4+C/Gouby D+d (the one secret santa is referring to, first mentioned at http://www.predecimal.com/forum/topic/9753-1922-penny-with-1927-reverse-confirmation/?p=125335)

    I hope I got that all correct!

    Mr T, I think you are right about your last two examples, but "all" reference books refer to the F192A, as the 1922, with 1927 Reverse. The F192A is very rare. but the other (last) two examples you mention are almost unobtainable. I think the F192B might be the "Specimen" 1922/27. (not sure though, as I have never seen one, unless the recent Heritage auction example was one.) :)

    Not quite - Gouby in his book The Bronze Coinage of Great Britain differentiates between the reverse on 1922 F192A (which Freeman calls the reverse of 1927) and the "true" reverse which is found on 1927 onwards. Gouby labels the 2 reverses c and d respectively whereas Freeman refers to them both as reverse C. There are significant differences (well, significant to penny collectors anyway), prinicipally in the number of border teeth and the depth of the exergue.

    The coin that started this topic is a normal 1922 F192.

    The coin in the next LCA sale is a F192A

    The thumbnail I posted above is the only known specimen of a 1922 with "true" 1927 reverse.

    Historically, F192A has generally been described as having a 1927 reverse but, pedantically, it's not correct.

    Clear as mud, probably !!!

    Needless to say, I wasn't quite right - the 1922 proof has the 1927 reverse as well !!!! RLC35's list is absolutely spot on.


  6. I'm afraid I'd have to disagree with you Rash, all the normal markers are pointing to it being one. What can you see we can't? Londoncoins seem to think it's one too and it wouldn't be good for them to be selling this for ££££ if it's not legit.

    As jelida said, it's the proto-1927 reverse, not the real 1927 reverse (Freeman didn't distinguish between the two).

    The four different 1922-dated pennies are:

    Freeman 192: 3+B/Gouby C+b

    Freeman 192A: 3+C/Gouby C+c

    Freeman -: 3+C/Gouby C+d (the proofs for the 1924 proof sets)

    Freeman 192B: 4+C/Gouby D+d (the one secret santa is referring to, first mentioned at http://www.predecimal.com/forum/topic/9753-1922-penny-with-1927-reverse-confirmation/?p=125335)

    I hope I got that all correct!

    Mr T, I think you are right about your last two examples, but "all" reference books refer to the F192A, as the 1922, with 1927 Reverse. The F192A is very rare. but the other (last) two examples you mention are almost unobtainable. I think the F192B might be the "Specimen" 1922/27. (not sure though, as I have never seen one, unless the recent Heritage auction example was one.) :)

    Not quite - Gouby in his book The Bronze Coinage of Great Britain differentiates between the reverse on 1922 F192A (which Freeman calls the reverse of 1927) and the "true" reverse which is found on 1927 onwards. Gouby labels the 2 reverses c and d respectively whereas Freeman refers to them both as reverse C. There are significant differences (well, significant to penny collectors anyway), prinicipally in the number of border teeth and the depth of the exergue.

    The coin that started this topic is a normal 1922 F192.

    The coin in the next LCA sale is a F192A

    The thumbnail I posted above is the only known specimen of a 1922 with "true" 1927 reverse.

    Historically, F192A has generally been described as having a 1927 reverse but, pedantically, it's not correct.

    Clear as mud, probably !!!


  7. Regarding the 1926 with "pattern" reverse. It seems to be a hybrid of Freeman reverses B and C. It has the slightly larger figure of Britannia as on reverse B but has the border teeth of reverse C which are slightly longer and fewer in number (184 as opposed to 187 on reverse C. I assume that it's an interim stage of development of reverse C. It was sold at London Coin Auction in March 2009 as part of the Roland Harris collection (as a 1926 M.E.)

    What coin did you count 187 rim denticles on? I've counted the rim denticles on a couple of Freeman C/Gouby d pennies and get 184.

    Sorry - my typo. I should have said reverse B. Freeman reverse B (Gouby reverse B) has 187 teeth. Gouby reverse c (not listed by Freeman) has 181 teeth. Gouby reverse d (Freeman C) has 184 teeth.

    Hope this clarifies.

    • Like 1

  8. :D

    Can you listen in on any of the LCA auctions or is it just online bidding through the saleroom only?

    I've asked them if they are going online and they always say they have no plans to, so there's no bidding online thro the saleroom. I'm not sure whether you can even leave commission bids thro the saleroom. You can leave postal bids with LCA or get them to telephone you but you can't follow the auctions online. They're losing out on a huge audience but maybe the costs are prohibitive ?


  9. Sadly, this bears no resemblance to a genuine F192A which Freeman describes a having a "1927 reverse" which, of course, is not true because the F192A does not have a true 1927 reverse, but something similar which was probably a precursor to the 1927 design. A 1922 penny does exist with the true 1927 reverse but this is probably unique - certainly only one has been found to date.

    This forum seems to be attracting some members with questionable motives (not to mention grasp of grammar and spelling) , or am I a tad cynical ?

    P.S. Love Bob's F192A - a beauty :rolleyes:


  10. Everyone is entitled to sell /ask or buy what they want.

    Currently there is a F8 and F41 listed on ebay ,both have been rejected by cgs for obvious reasons.

    Would be interested in any opinions as to what they will sell for ?.

    Right, doing my best Mystic Meg impression I can see a tall dark short-sighted stranger paying £750 for the F8 mule and £200 for that vile F41.


  11. Gents, for your comparison here is both of those overlaapped. The yellow outline and red outline differenciate the two.

    Matt

    Can you do the same trick with Bob's circular dot and my unc lump please. (and how do you do that ????)

    R

    Here you go, very interesting that thery aren't actually anywhere near each other.. I don't even need to highlight the two it's that obvious. They're not lined up exactly as it's hard to get both to the exact same zoom but it's still clear.

    And I'm using a program called Snag-it, it's actually really handy if you have to manipulate lots of images, it's not free unfortunately but we have it at work.

    Matt

    That's great - looks as though there might be 2 kinds of 1946 "dot" (with different dots in different places). That makes a pretty tedious "variety" a tad more interesting. I wonder if anyone has another example of the circular dot ? Get checking your pennies, boys !

    R


  12. Also these dots can be progressive, I brought a 1946 penny with dot from ebay relying on the picture and when it arrived, no dot. Unfortunitly I sold it on but remembering back there was a roughness to the field where the dot would later form. I often wish I'd kept it now.

    The 1946 "dot" is the least dot-like of all these features and, on an uncirculated example can be seen as just a lump of clag. See below

    attachicon.gif1946 F233 ONE' Flaw zoom.JPG

    I have a 1946 Dot like yours, but I also have a CGS Slabbed 1946, with almost a perfect "Dot"...pic attached.

    attachicon.gif1946 Dot close up.jpg

    Now that is very interesting - your dot appears to be in a different place, a little nearer to the E !!

    My "dot" is far from circular and matches the picture in Michael Gouby's book "The British Bronze Penny 1860 - 1967". It also matches 2 spares that I have which are more worn, with the "dot" becoming more like a dot as it wears down. Could you post a pic of the whole reverse to compare positions. I'll post pictures of the spares.

    post-8184-0-38198100-1449237299_thumb.jppost-8184-0-70345100-1449237300_thumb.jp


  13. Also these dots can be progressive, I brought a 1946 penny with dot from ebay relying on the picture and when it arrived, no dot. Unfortunitly I sold it on but remembering back there was a roughness to the field where the dot would later form. I often wish I'd kept it now.

    The 1946 "dot" is the least dot-like of all these features and, on an uncirculated example can be seen as just a lump of clag. See below

    attachicon.gif1946 F233 ONE' Flaw zoom.JPG

    Again after looking at your site i have never seen or heard of one in such a good grade.

    Yes, I bought it over 11 years ago and have never seen any better than Fine since.


  14. Also these dots can be progressive, I brought a 1946 penny with dot from ebay relying on the picture and when it arrived, no dot. Unfortunitly I sold it on but remembering back there was a roughness to the field where the dot would later form. I often wish I'd kept it now.

    The 1946 "dot" is the least dot-like of all these features and, on an uncirculated example can be seen as just a lump of clag. See below

    post-8184-0-07632000-1449226865_thumb.jp


  15. Both sets of pictures are very good and can enable the viewer to determine the grade of the coin which is important. Less easy to know is the extent of the lustre on the coin but that will always tend to vary with the light that was used when the photo was taken , whether natural or artificial. Just as the light used when viewing the coin in the hand will affect the extent of lustre. It all depends on whether the picture is an aid to selling the coin or to capture the image for the owner's information and pleasure. Picture taken seconds apart will vary depending on light fluctuation. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, as they say.

    R

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