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Content Count
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Posts posted by alfnail
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On 30/06/2016 at 10:19 AM, PWA 1967 said:Alfnail was selling one No 4 recently ,dont know if he sold it.
Yes Pete, I did sell a low grade 1863 Die No. 4 last December. I listed first on ebay but then sold to an existing customer off-line together with an 1862 8/6, the 1863 sold for £870. Well remembered, Ian
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For the Victorian Bronze penny collector of Gouby varieties I notice there is an 1860Je (6/6) on this website, MS64 at what some may consider to be a reasonable price of $375
http://atlasnumismatics.com/1017329/
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Wasn't sure which topic to put this in but just wanted to point out that despite being NGC slabbed this ebay piece is NOT an 1897 High Sea Level, so please do not be tempted / mis-lead by the authoritative labelling, would be an awful lot of money anyway even if it was:-
I have advised the seller so hopefully he will now either remove or add some additional comments
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Now that this sale has completed, apart from a couple of pieces which seem to be rumbling on, I wonder whether members have views regarding selling one’s collection in this way as opposed to through a traditional auction house………. for example thinking of the recent Elstree collection.
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Does this help clarify!?
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......and the slightly wider Bx, but not as wide as Aa or Ca.
Note that both type B's have the gap between R and E of REG.
Apologies for picture quality of this one, sold many years ago so they are edited from my picture library.............as I retain everything!!
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As promised final sets of pictures of the two 1889 narrow dates.....
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No problem Richard. I will try to do the B and B* tomorrow, although the latter will not be to same definition as I unknowingly sold that coin not spotting the different narrowdate width.........at least I kept the old pictures.
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....and Ad, widest 9 high in exergue
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...and Ac. Again very small RE gap.
Note digital microscope set to brilliant white light to get best detail...........but not best colour!
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I’m back from my break and catching up. Have to say I’m quite pleased with the turn of direction my 1889 penny post headed off. I will want to return to the use of progressive die wear as a tool for determining timelines as I have done quite a bit of work in that area, but more on Victorian Copper Pennies rather than Bronzes………….. and think this has led to quite a few interesting finds.
Well done to Rob for his clear explanation before others got the wrong end of the stick.
For the moment, however, having already loaded 1889 Ca pictures I did promise to do the same groupings for the Gouby type A and B dates, so here are the first two (Aa and Ab).
With regard to the R and E of REG touching I had previously replied to say that they did touch on the undocumented date width Ab, but having now had a proper look under the digital microscope I can see that I was mistaken and there is in fact a slight gap, and also a double struck R on my example. Does anyone else have this date width for comparison?
The common Aa date width (extra leaf obverse) displays a distinct gap between the R and E, unlike type Ca (missing leaf obverse) where they always seem to touch
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P.S. This is the best definition I can manage within the 500Kb allowance, but if you click on the images and enlarge they will appear better
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I will undertake to do this, here is the first coin set of pictures. I am away now until Monday but will do the other 6 (Aa,Ab,Ac,Ad,B,Bx) upon my return if members find this helpful. As this takes me quite a bit of time I would be grateful for confirmation that this style of picturing is what you would like please.
On the Ca you can see missing leaf with incuse lines in it's place, normal date width with top of nine directly under centre drape of gown, and also REG RE touching, as spotted by 2* Terry............who seems to have an excellent eye for detail to match the very best. It's Ian not Alf by the way Terry, alfnail is an anagram of real name, see if you can work that one out!
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A collecting colleague has just confirmed that he has 1 of each of Aa, B and Ca which are same as my findings, so could be added to the counts in the table I posted above
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Sorry Terry (Richard) was going to get back to you about the REG business once I had checked my records and coins, all quite interesting. Adding in the Crocker, Workman and LCA pieces I have the following numbers to add into the calculations:-
Gouby
R?EG
Count
Ca
Touch
4
Aa
Gap
3
Ab
Touch
1
Ac
Touch
1
Ad
Touch
4
B
Gap
3
Bx
Gap
2
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10 hours ago, scott said:both those types can be found readily.
if you look:
top one
top of 9 above 8
tail of 9 just below bottom of 8
second one
top of 9 level with top of 8
tail below
you can tell these widths by the general placement of the 9's compared to the 8 next to it.
this is a rarer one
better ones i own
I’m afraid you are mistaken, Gouby B’s are NOT readily available; there are currently none on ebay from over 100 coins. Even a low grade piece will command a premium, as demonstrated by this recent sale at LCA:-
http://www.londoncoins.co.uk/?page=Pastresults&auc=152&searchlot=2451&searchtype=2
Furthermore you cannot “tell these widths by the general placement of the 9’s compared to the 8 next to it”. The common Aa and Ca date numerals are well aligned at the top, which is also the case with type B. I have added a further picture of narrow date type B and also the common date type Aa to illustrate this good numeral alignment, and one can also see the different location of numerals compared to border teeth and the danger in trying to distinguish these two types purely be reference to numeral spacing. The best way to distinguish the common width from the narrow date is to compare the top of the 9 to the centre drape of Britannia’s gown as illustrated by the red and white lines I have drawn in.
When the 9 climbs progressively into the exergue, as one goes from Aa to Ab,Ac and finally Ad that checking the alignment of the 9 with the other numerals helps with identifying the rarer wider date type/s, your first picture being one of those.
At first glance your OmniCoin pictures both appear to be standard type Aa’s.
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Many thanks for your posting and pictures Terry. I have just examined 3 narrow date specimens which I have previously owned and now sold, and discovered that 2 of these have the same date width as the previous picture I posted of Gouby B. One of these 3 coins is, however, slightly wider and appears to be the same as you have shown in your bottom date picture i.e. somewhere in between the Gouby B and Gouby Aa date widths. This new narrow date is something I have previously missed so thanks for bringing it to my attention.
I have used my old ‘pre-sale’ picture and now show the date on this last coin (described as Bx) alongside the more common narrow date B which I posted earlier……again with vertical lines inserted from top of 9 and centre robe to make comparison easier.
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1 hour ago, terrysoldpennies said:Alf . I agree with all your findings, as all the examples I have seen have had obverse S with the extra leaf , but I have made some extra discoveries to the 1889 types . I have to go out now, but later today I will get back to you on my findings. Terry
Thanks Terry, look forward to hearing from you later, note it's obverse R with the extra leaf. Obverse S has leaf removed and some incuse hair engraved in it's place. Further picture attached illustrating difference. Regards, Ian
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Part of his reply to one of my emails said "There is a possibility that the picture of BP 1889 Cd is a worn example of that die. I will try and find were I have put that coin..."
..........but he did not get back to me, so presumably was unable to locate the specimen which led to the entry in his book.
This has left me thinking, perhaps same as you Richard, that the Cd should have been documented as an Ad and maybe there are no Cd's to be found.
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On Page 85 Gouby writes “this extremely wide date has been referenced as BP 1889 Cd as it is more than likely that there will be other date widths found between 14 ½ and 16 teeth width and they can be listed, if found, as Cb or Cc”
Whilst I am actually not an avid collector of date width variations the 1889 penny has for some reason captured my imagination and I have looked for intermediate date widths for several years since first reading Gouby’s 2009 book. These endeavours have led me to collect the 5 coins now pictured below, all taken with the same magnification on my digital microscope. They are, however, all type A’s obverse R with the extra leaf and, having written to MG over the years about these findings, I have assigned the letter suffixes Ab, Ac and Ad for these undocumented types.
I have not located types Cb,Cc or Cd and decided to stop looking a couple of years ago.
I have just had a quick look at the 1889 pennies currently listed on ebay (over 100 coins) and can only see Aa & Ca date types, an indication as to the rarity of the other date widths.
My question for members is:-
Does anyone own, or has pictures of, a clear type Cd example?
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Problems with these sale descriptions:-
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The Crocker coin was advertised as 12 + N. This means it would be an obverse R, but Gouby does not document a wide date variety Ad for that obverse, only an Aa. Back in 2010 I put the Crocker coin down to a description error, most likely driven by the worn example with no hair detail present in the area that would need examining.
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The low grade Workman example seemed to be a similar mistake as the Crocker coin, exacerbated by additionally describing as Gouby CD, which contradicts F127.
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I then found my ebay wide date example and was a little surprised to see that it clearly had the extra leaf present, therefore making it a Gouby obverse R, which would be a type Ad if documented.
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The LCA example confirmed my ebay finding, also displaying the extra leaf, although disappointingly described once more as a Gouby Cd when clearly not an obverse S.
Further post and picture to follow on immediately….
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The recent comments regarding the 1889 wide date (under the ‘more pennies’ thread) has prompted me to write to ask members to help me get to the bottom of something which has been bothering me for a while………and keeps resurfacing.
This will be a detailed posting so please be warned that if you are not interested in either pennies, or their date width variations, then you may not wish to read on.
If you are still with me then please allow me to set the scene.
The 2 main die pairings for this date are:-
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Freeman 127 (12 +N) = Gouby BP 1889 A (R + r) and Gouby BP 1889 B (R + r)
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Freeman 128 (13 + N) = Gouby BP 1889 C (S + r)
N.B. Gouby decided to allocate type ‘B’ to the narrow date variety saying that “this is because it was first referenced back in 1986”. It does, however, still have the same die pairing (R + r) as his type A.
At this juncture it is worth noting that the two obverses involved are very similar, the main identifier being the ‘extra leaf – top back’ on Obverse R, which is missing on Obverse S. They can be very difficult to distinguish on lower grade specimens which have little hair detail remaining.
Wide Date Variety
Penny variety collectors will know that in Gouby’s 2009 book, on Page 85, he additionally describes a much wider numeral 9 sub-variety to which he assigns type Cd, indicating that this wide 9 has only been seen when paired with his obverse S, not R.
I have only ever seen a handful of these wide 9 specimens, the first time in the Crocker sale back in 2009, the year Gouby’s book was published. The second coin was in the Workman sale in 2010.
In 2011 I was lucky enough to acquire a better grade piece on ebay, and I then saw a further example sold at London Coin Auctions ion 2013.
I have attached images of all 4 of these coins; mine will be on a separate post to follow on immediately due to file size. All 4 examples cause me problems in reconciling with the advertisements and documented Cd type, and this is where I would like some assistance………..the Crocker and Workman examples are owned by other members of this site.
Crocker example was advertised as F__. Dies 12 + N
Workman example was advertised as F127. Dies 12 + N. Gouby CD
My example was simply advertised as an 1889 penny on ebay
LCA example was advertised as Gouby BP1889Cd
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7 hours ago, PWA 1967 said:Lot 3206 Matt.
Not really into date widths and not really saying they are rare ,just more obvious.
I have an 1889 that the 9 is higher it is that wide could not of been done straight
Hi Pete, think there are some collectors who would find your 1889 wide date quite desirable. The one on the link below sold for £100 at LCA in 2013, and the Crocker example (which was lower grade than LCA) sold for £170 in the Colin Cooke sale back in 2009.
http://www.londoncoins.co.uk/?page=Pastresults&auc=140&searchlot=2125&searchtype=2
Penny Acquisition of the week
in British Coin Related Discussions & Enquiries
Posted
Thanks for your post Rob.
I think that the repaired F13 you seek may well be Gouby type BP 1860 La (E +d), which he describes on Page 37 of his 2009 book, saying ‘Known 1’.
I attach Obverse / Reverse pictures of my own La specimen, and will immediately follow these with close ups of the two ‘E’ repairs. I am sure my coin is his type La, although interesting that the E of ONE repair on my coin still has a portion of the middle bar missing.
As far as I can see my coin does not have any reverse die cracks, but the obverse does have a large one to the RHS of HONI………which I cannot see on your own coin. I find the use of die cracks to demonstrate continuity a very interesting subject.