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I wondered whether any other member had ever attempted a study of the working dies of the very rare 1861 reverse F varieties, Freeman numbers F19, F24, F27 and F32. The reason for asking this question is that I recently purchased an F24 (pictures attached) because I noticed that the last numeral 1 was wider than I had ever seen before, and also tilted anti-clockwise……again something I hadn’t recalled seeing. With the benefit of Richard’s excellent websites I decided to examine the dates more closely, as far as was possible with the image quality of some of the coins. This exercise has led me to conclude that there are at least 4 different positions for the last 1, hence at least 4 different working dies. Also, apart from my latest purchase, all of the coins pictured on Richard’s websites seem to have the last numeral 1 tilted clockwise, to a greater or lesser extent. Perhaps another interesting find is that the two F24’s which are paired with the ‘missing top leaf’ obverse also look as though they may have been struck with the same reverse die as F32 Example 8, the last 1 been very tilted and low in line on all 3 coins…………..although this could I guess be coincidental. This reverse could, however, still have had plenty of life left in it as the obverse moved from Freeman 5 to 6, so I feel very plausible. Do other members have any thoughts or looked at this before? P.S. I have never seen an F19. Gouby 2009 says 1 known specimen in Fair grade, if anyone has pictures please could you share?

Re. the two obverses paired with the single N/Z reverse, they both have a die flaw from the top leaf, but you will notice that they hit the rim at slightly different locations. Also both have interesting but different repairs.

Many thanks for additional pictures Prax and Jerry. I was aware of the documented comments about numerous date varieties in the early years of the Bronze penny. Nevertheless with only approx. 30 known reverse F specimens spread across the 4 different paired obverses I still felt it quite interesting to look a bit more closely at the reverse variations. Personally I think more interesting than some of the later date Victorian pennies which can also have numerous date variations. I expect Richard would like to add Jerry's F32 pictures to his website.

Many thanks for the picture. The date on the F19 looks the same as the F24 Examples 3,4,and 7 on Richard's 'rarest pennies' website, the last 1 pointing slightly towards the front of the 4th tooth to the right of the 6

Thanks for the suggestion Colin. The only 1881H which I have kept in my collection, which has the same reverse type, has the H in an undocumented position, see picture. This does not match the position of the H on the 1882Ma, so attempting to overlay the 1882Ma date over the 1881H date did not seem as though it would have definitively helped using the example I have got in my collection. I.e. clearly from different original dies. Also the two examples of 1881Ha and 1881Hb on page 77 of Gouby similarly have the H in yet different positions to the 1882Ma. Despite this I think it is still a good idea to do as you have suggested and take pictures of the 2 and 1 on my two coins at same 140 x magnification and see if I can get the top left tip of the 1 to protrude thanks. Will need to report back another day as have family arriving soon and need to hide from grandchildren!

Reference my 1882Ma (2/1) query on 3rd March, Page 44 of ‘More pennies’, I think I have now answered my own question by finding another example, pictures attached. This piece also displays the additional protrusion to the top left hand side of the numeral 2, which I think is most likely the top left corner of the top bar of the underneath numeral 1. I feel that this may be an even better indicator of this variety than the protrusion on the inner curve……which always seems to be weak to the point of doubting the variety. When one considers the combination of the 2 protrusions I think this gives increased confidence in confirming type. The lack of any response to my original post I guess means either no one is interested, or no members think they have an example…...although it would be difficult to see this top protrusion without a decent ‘looking glass’.

Many thanks for that Richard, much appreciated. I now attach a close up of my 1882Ma, where one can immediately see the different location of the H in respect to the border teeth and numeral 8’s when compared to type Kb. The protrusion of the 1 just above the inner curve is weak but can be seen on my example, but I would also like to ask whether other members have an Ma which also exhibits a tiny protrusion at the top left of the 2, as indicated by the red arrow. MG says on his page 79 “the only part of the 1 that can be seen, on this example, is the small portion that sticks out centrally, half way up the 2”. I think, however, that his picture may also have the tiny protrusion top left, which I presume could be the top left corner of the top bar of the underneath numeral 1. Please could I ask other members to check their own specimens and comment?

Judging by the lack of replies I think I must have confused everyone. I am pretty sure I have correctly matched my Kb with the small picture in MG’s book. The protrusion of the 1 half way up the inner curve of the 2 looks identical to me, in particular the curved part of the 1 which I have now highlighted in yellow. MG does not, however, give a full date picture of the Kb, but he does show a full picture of the Ka date with what appears to be a die crack around, and perhaps a little inside, the 2. Whilst his Ka date picture is not high definition the numerals and H look as though they are identically positioned to my own full Kb date picture. This has left me thinking that Ka and Kb may both have been struck from the same die, but that Ka is just struck later after the die has become ‘flawed’, and that this flawing perhaps gives a false impression of a different 2/1 amended die. If members think this is likely to be the case then I do not need to go hunting for another Ka example. Probably confused everyone even more now!!

The recent discussions on the potential new 1882/1 reverse r variety prompted me to take a closer look at my own examples, and this leaves me with a couple of queries. I had previously thought that I had all 3 examples described on pages 78/9 of Michael’s book i.e. Ka, Kb and Ma. I now find, however, that I have two examples of Kb and I am wondering whether I now need to start looking again for a Ka. I guess the good news is that I have a spare 1882Kb which I can sell to raise pocket money for next weekend…..lol 1882Ma is clearly from a different amended Gouby p reverse to the 1882Kb reverse; the location of the H in relation to the border teeth and two numeral 8’s being particularly noticeable…...so this means there were at least 2 amended reverse dies. Can I ask, however, if any member has what they believe to be a Ka variety, struck from yet another amended die and with a variation of date numerals (and H) when compared to Kb and Ma? I have looked at Richard’s site but see that he does not distinguish between Ka and Kb types. I have attached date pictures of my 1882Kb for reference. I also have a query regarding BP 1882Ma but will leave that for a ‘follow on’ post if there is interest in this one.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/British-coin-Georgius-V-1911-One-penny-Year-of-the-coronation-/161984547835?hash=item25b7080bfb:g:~dEAAOSwIwhWRxlq Postage seems a little expensive

Lot 2462 at the March Auction has prompted me to write. I reference Page 93 of Gouby’s 2009 book in which he documents type 1898Aa (10.5 teeth) and 1898B (11 teeth). My understanding is that his type ‘B’ was assigned because of the different style of the second numeral 8. Had it not been for this different style of numeral 8 then he would have assigned a wider 11 teeth date spacing as 1898Ab, in the same manner as he has done for many other years in his book. The style of the second 8 on his 1898B, where the “bisect lines – align at the centre” he says is scarce. My experience is that this Style B type of 8 is only seen on the Widow Head (1895-1901) series in 1898. I think, however, that it is always seen on the Bun Heads up until 1894. I would be interested to find out if other members have different findings. Attached is a reference picture showing the two different types of 8, both taken from the same 1898 penny in my own collection. As far as Lot 2462 is concerned it looks to me as though the date width has been correctly identified as 11 teeth, but the second numeral 8 is NOT the scarce Gouby B type.

Yes, think re-cut F, pretty sure have seen this several times. Similar to the more well known 1841Bramah 2c variety pictured below, although this time the underlying F protrusions are higher. If one looks at enough copper pennies I think repairs to every letter (and numeral) in the legend can be found, although some are far more obvious than others. All the B2c's I have seen also display those faint marks around the DEF Colon, which I believe must to be repairs to both dots......again dot repairs are often seen, although I think perhaps less common.

Please feel free to use any of my pictures on your website Richard. Best wishes, Ian

When I first became aware of this suggested variety I was a little sceptical that it really could be another ‘inverted die’ mistake. Of course there are several established legend error varieties of this type, for example the V/ Inverted A’s seen on the 1860 penny and 1854 Half Penny, also the rare 1861 overdates 8/6 and 6/8, but the positions and distance of the relevant letters on the 1858 penny seemed to make an F/B mistake less plausible. Also the protrusions of the underlying B on the first picture I saw were not entirely convincing. I decided to hold judgement until I could acquire a high grade example; pictures of this coin are now attached. Shot at 120x magnification the top two pictures are the F and B from the actual coin. I have then lassoed (by hand) the bits of B showing under F, highlighted these in yellow, and amended the image in PhotoStudio to 50% transparency……..this is bottom left. The final stage, bottom right, is an overlay of this picture on top of the B of BRITANIAR. It seems to me that the protrusions are a good match, and a strong indication that this is indeed a valid error variety, but I would welcome the views of other members. I have only seen a handful of coins struck from this amended die. If Pete has acquired 3 then I think he has done very well. Perhaps once that ‘Victorian Copper Penny’ book is written he will be able to sell his spares at the same price as say an 1861 6/8!

'skilfully added' according to London Coins Pete......and yes I do own it. Thought an interesting piece, and quite a nice grade anyway

.......and how's about an 1875ND penny with an H.......just to get this one re-started now that everyone's chilled....

I bought an 1876, sold as without an H, many years ago. I no longer have the coin and disposed of it before I had my digital microscope, but I have located the old image which is now attached. My notes against this coin said that if tilted to the light then a very faded H could still be seen, although the H is not visible on the attachment. Was a low grade and cleaned piece.

Definitely the real thing, and surprising that Lockdales make this mistake. Attached pictures for reference, obverse with usual markings as noted by other members and doubled (die clash) ribbons, again always present............ date close up picture with same protrusions (highlighted in red) always seen and clearly also on the Lockdales piece.

Agreed Matt, and apologies because not listed this afternoon, had it on wrong search!! Must have missed them when first listed, showing my age!!

Some very nice bun heads been listed on ebay this afternoon by this seller:- http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GREAT-BRITAIN-Victoria-1860-AE-Penny-PCGS-MS65BN-Dies-6-D-KM-749-2-Gem-/171873195275?hash=item280470d50b:g:SKEAAOSwd0BVt49v Think this one has been incorrectly slabbed as an F17 when should be F16, but still a rarer type so may be of interest to members / perhaps worth an offer if anyone is looking for type!

Perhaps Secret Santa is playing games with us all, and the Elf tree is where he grows his ‘wonderland’ pennies. I have already sent him my Christmas ‘wish list’ letter, and can’t wait until the big day arrives………..but please no chocolate coins this year………..just your 1843DFF would make me very happy!

I told someone about a rare coin only a few days ago after he had already listed on ebay..........because he is a mate and I wanted to see him get a fair price. If he hadn't been a good friend then I wouldn't have said anything, tried to buy it myself cheaply and sell for a profit.........that's the only way I can afford to buy pieces like the ones selling at the next LCA without upsetting the wife's holiday plans

An existing customer of mine bought it

......actually 'no' Pete, have only got one 1876Hf and definitely staying put for the time being. Been looking for another (and better example) since my find in 2011 but not got one yet and time to share with others. No doubt another member will already have one tucked away, probably without knowing it!

I wasn’t able to attend LCA this month so left a couple of postal bids, and now find that Jerry has nabbed both of them. Re. the Gouby 1875Hf which Jerry mentioned, I have seen the double ended ribbon on this date only four times, so think it is quite rare, although difficult to check features on many ebay sales because pictures generally not high enough definition. Interestingly this exact same obverse die is also paired with an 1876H wide date, and I believe that variety is far rarer. I wrote to Michael about this back in 2011 and he agreed with me that ”it is more than probable that the obverse die was carried over from 1875 for use with the 1876 wide date penny”……..and I think he planned to include in revised pages to his 2009 book when time permits.