Red Riley

Far be it for me to wish for a re-opening of the slabbing debate, but I have just acquired a bun penny in a slab from a top grading company. Not only is the coin splodged with fingerprints but the plastic insert is too. Smoking gun anybody? Needless to say, I am readying my hacksaw...

As we've hit a bit of a quiet spell, can I just ask the question, 'what to your mind is the most aesthetically pleasing British coin ever minted?' Since I posted the topic, I will reserve my opinions until later!

I have just acquired a copy of Peck in good condition without dust sheet. Looking for £85 plus postage (£10.77 to UK at current prices). Alternatively, if the purchase wants to cut out the postman I will be at Midland Coin Fair on Sunday. Derek

Just a quick word on the BNTA, they now effectively self-select as one of their entrance criteria is that members have to be VAT registered, which cuts out 99% of dealers anyway. The more I look at it, the more it appears as if they are acting as some sort of numismatic freemasonry. Information on fakes should be in the public domain and not used as some type of sales tool.

This has been on the cards for some time, Michael is nearly 70 and really wants an easier life - his lifestyle involved staying in London all week and only returning home at weekends. As I understand it, he is preparing an office at home but I am surprised he has pulled the plug on his website so soon, it was a mine of useful information full of 'well I never knew that' moments. He still has a colossal stuck running, I believe to tens of thousands of coins and it could be a lifetimes work cataloguing and putting them up for sale!

I went yesterday. In a small room with very few dealers, most of whom also do Birmingham, and comparatively few customers. The dealers (presumably not by design) tended to display mostly hammered and ancient. I came back without buying anything...

The other lot are worse!

Odd isn't it? We have no choice of whose portrait goes on our coins and end up making them look like Miss World (young head coins of the last two female monarchs at least...). But with the whole world to choose from the American mint go and choose some munter with a nutcracker chin! Actually I'm rather fond of Morgan dollars but can't really say why.

Why shouldn't Americans call their cents pennies? Where I come from right up until decimalisation, five shillings was always known as a dollar. I am sure some American collectors will fill you in (!) but I have a feeling that there is some history behind the American 'penny'.

Too risky for me that. I'm fortunate in having a workshop with a vice. Other than that all you need is two blocks of soft wood to clamp the slab in the vice and a hacksaw to cut along two sides; no risk of jagged bits of plastic scratching the coin. And always keep the label.

I do take your point Peck. To reduce the gap between rich and poor, which has been ever widening since the seventies, income tax would need to be increased and indirect taxes such as VAT need to reduce. The problem with income tax though is that the higher rates don't actually raise much and to make any kind of difference, the basic rate would need to be increased and you can imagine the howls of anguish this would produce from the dogs in the manger. As a result raising it is probably politically impossible. Despite it being a maximum of 50 miles from me, I have never heard of Elmbridge!

It was very important that it wasn't Northern Rock. If the government had allowed the plug to be pulled on the first bank to hit choppy waters, then there would have been a run on every bank - result, financial chaos. I do agree that the banks were being vastly imprudent but in letting them fail ad hoc, the government would have been doing way, way more than giving a rap across the knuckles to those who had taken advantage of the situation. Unfortunately, as is always the case, those that suffered most would have been those who were least to blame for the carnage, and least able to ride out the storm. I think we can agree though that people do need to learn to live within their means and insisting that the banks are not complicit in individuals' imprudence will go some way to curbing their worst excesses.

Hi Lee, Welcome to the forum. My advice is to suck it and see for a bit. I am actually quite old(!) and started to collect from change before decimalisation, initially pennies as they offered the greatest variety and the longest date run in circulation at the time. I then started to buy all sorts of stuff from a dealer down the Portobello Road and ended up, in addition to my pennies, collecting (or at least trying) to collect one of each coin type issued in the milled series since 1662. Didn't quite manage it but hey... Nowadays I no longer collect but deal in coins instead - so a kind of gamekeeper turned poacher so to speak...

I'm sorry Rob I don't agree with that. The financial crisis got dramatically worse when the American government allowed Lehman Bros. to go to the wall. Allowing Northern Rock to go tits up would have put even greater pressure on the UK economy and would certainly have meant that the cost of bailing out the other miscreants would have increased exponentially, perhaps to the point that it became unviable. This would have then led to the UK going cap in hand to the IMF and conceivably to global economic meltdown. Don't forget it was a very close-run thing and the odd percentage point here or there could have tipped the whole thing over the edge.

I have to say that for people new to the hobby I am in favour of collecting randomly - a few modern pieces, farthings, florins, Tudor, mediaeval, Roman - all can be purchased for less than you think. And (unless your age is approaching three figures!) there will be plenty of time to specialise later. The main thing is simply to enjoy it.

I have to say I rather favour Scottish independence (although is any country truly independent these days?) for all sorts of bizarre reasons; 1) Ulster Unionism? The effect will be interesting... 2) The Union Jack? would we change it or pretend nothing had happened and carry on rather like we did when doggedly putting the fleur de lys and the legend 'Fra... Rex' on our coins two centuries after Calais had returned to France, or grabbing that extra year of 'Ind Imp' on our coins after Indian independence. 3) English National identity? As it stands we don't have one, we regard ourselves as British. When the Scots play 'Flower of Scotland' and the Welsh 'Men of Harlech' we just trot out that awful dirge of a British National Anthem that pre-supposes we all subscribe to the infallibility of the House of Windsor. Do you think we could have our own one please? Not sure an English identity will be pretty but it least it will be ours. 4) The utter confusion that multi-nationals will get themselves into - you know, the ones who refer to London, United Kingdom or whatever, when that address has never really existed. And that's just scratching the surface. Go for it Jock, you might even do us a favour! (hides behind the sofa...)

You would think the 2nd wouldn't you? I have a nasty feeling however that the first would be easier to sell.

I have bought a few coins on e-bay over the years which have looked like that and turned out to be cleaned so with a little bit of experience I can imagine just what it will look like in the hand. I have to say though, if they hadn't said, I wouldn't have noticed it.

Metro?

Clearly they both used slightly different alloys - that would explain why Heaton pennies are nearly all black (or darker than RM) and K.N. - who supplied blanks to the RM over quite a few years - are very often reddish. But the dies they used were provided by RM and presumably all they did was to punch in the H / KN? I imagine that the Mint, who used dies to wear beyond normal during the War, told their subcontractors not to worry too much about wear, which explains why you see it so often. I don't know what their processes were, but Heatons had been used to mint bronze since the 1870s, so I imagine they were subject to RM approval and inspection? Sorry if I'm a bit behind the curve here as I've been on holiday. The subject of the 18-19 H & KN pennies interests me immensely (we can forget 12 altogether as this supposed 'rarity' is purely down to hype). Both KNs seem to be much rarer than their H bretheren, but as a collector from change before decimalisation it always appeared that the 1919H was far more common than the 18 and yet, panning forward at least 45 years the 19 is much rarer in high grade and in my mind usually better struck. I am not sure I agree with you, Peck on the alloy used by King's Norton - they presumably had to adhere quite closely to Royal Mint specifications which would,I imagine, have been fairly stringent. I have a feeling of deja vu here somewhere but it is my opinion that the source of the metal and the level of impurities in it is likely to have been just as significant - King's Norton must always have used metal from the same source, hence the consistency of tone, whereas the Royal Mint and Heatons whose products both show variation of tone could have obtained their metal from multiple sources. To illustrate what I mean, check the differences in tone exhibited by the 'pure' copper issues from before 1860; no question of metal mix there but the colour range is still pretty wide with some years being consistently one tone whereas other years will be completely different. I wonder if this subject has ever been covered by the BNJ - looks like the sort of thing they might be interested in?

F-numbers? AAAAGGGGHHHH! I love my pennies but just can't relate to raw reference, hence it took me about 20 minutes to decipher this post! Anyway, going back to the original coin under scrutiny, I was talking to an old oppo of Rob's the other day re Soho proofs and patterns and since he's something of an expert I tend to listen to what he says on the subject, which was that anything less than hen's teeth rare and nigh on perfect may prove hard to shift as there aren't that many type collectors out there. Those that there are have by and large got the common stuff in better grade than you are likely to come across on the market. Deciphering all that, I think he would say don't touch it with a bargepole.

A lady I know went to school with their mother and she agrees 100%.

Bag o' bones, both of 'em.

Whilst attempting to avoid boiling up in my '52 Riley last year en route to Wincanton I discovered a good diversion to the north through all the military camps - quite quick roads and very direct. A303 is a definite no-no at present but that's something of a shame as parts of it are really scenic but two hour traffic jams in the blazing sun and with no air-conditioning aren't good for the heart rate...

Yes, for pretty much the first time ever the BBC had a report from Indianapolis filmed on what looked like a bridge over the freeway. Did look a tad chilly. Anyway, you'll be pleased to know that our storms are all part of the same weather system you're having over there. Funny old world.