mike

Thank you, Accumulator. It is nice to have a kind reply (for change ). M.

ARGENTUMANDCOINS I tell you why (IMO!) but you won't like it: 1, if the dealers send their coins for CGS grading, most (not all but most) of their UNC coins will be returned as EF, some as AUNC but some also as VF55. The same applies to EF, VF coins etc. Just ask Bill who already submitted around 2000 coins, or Divemaster. I have exactly the same experience. As NUMISMATIST said : quote "In fact I would say MOST Large Auctioneers and MOST large dealers, many being BNTA members seriously overgrade these days". I can confirm this from my own experience. Now when I am more familiar with CGS grading it takes me just few seconds on the coin show to see that the offered UNC coin would never ever make even a basic UNC80 grade... So instead of making vast profits they would suffer vast losses. 2, lot (not all) of coin dealers are not interested in a transparent coin market. With slabbed coin you can’t buy the coin as about EF and sell it as almost UNC and make large profit. As one of many examples – just recently I have noticed Victorian YH Halfcrown , sold in recent DNW auction (where described as GEF and sold for around 800,- pounds) on Coin Dealer website - described as choice mint state with price tag of 1500,- pounds. So either the vendor or new buyer was ripped off. DNW is happy with their profit, dealer is very happy with his profit and the buyer??? This is happening all the time and you have to realise that not all coin collectors are as experienced as lot of members on this forum and that it takes years to learn. In the meantime you rely on coin dealers and if you are not experienced enough you buy choice mint state halfcrown for 1500,- …. I wish CGS was around when I started collecting 20 years ago. 3, I do not understand your comment about “auction prices realized by the sister company of the slabbing firmâ€. Are you suggesting that London Coins is bidding against London Coins just to spend 500,- pounds on a coin worth 50, - pounds to show the public how good it is to have coin slabbed??? Yes they offer lot of slabbed coins in their auctions but if I want to sell slabbed coin I would certainly ask London Coins because I am sure that collectors who are interested in slabs are keeping eye on their auctions. I think your points 1. and 2. have a lot of merit Mike. There have always been apples in the dealer barrel that range from the rotten to the "over-enthusiastic", but a lot too - as you say - who are straight. But your point 3 could use some research on your part if you don't mind me saying. A company that slabs very ordinary coins and then (possibly) gets an employee to put them up on eBay with a lot of hype and vastly inflated prices (or bidding), to show the effect of slabbing on prices... well, I don't wish to be libellous, but it goes on. Thank you for your comments. You may be right and I am not going to advocate something I know very little about. Saying that I am not going to do any research in that respect - I rather invest my time in my hobby. I got involved in the discussion just because I have noticed that some of the members (which are usually strongly against slabbing) have very poor knowledge about the subject and I also felt that some of the comments towards CGS are unfair (when compared with my personal experience). Otherwise I am primarily interested in coin collecting - not slabbing! Around X-mas I have posted picture of George IV Halfcrown (my X-mas present, slab partially visible) and first reply was "Nice coin, shame it is in plastic coffin". I don't get it, I would never ever comment post from other member "Nice coin, shame it is not in a nice slab". Hope you know what I mean.

This was just one example, obviously this is happening with coins worth tenths of pounds as well. Also don't forget that lot of people are looking for alternative investments for their retirement etc. I am not advocating them but surly they should not be ripped off just because they are not experienced coin collectors (IMO).

Just based upon percentages, the 65's should be better than the 85. (65/70 = 92.8% whereas 85/100 = 85%). By this yardstick, a CGS85 is roughly equivalent to a MS60, but I know which I'd rather have. You can't compere these two grading systems, they are very different. MS 60 would hardly be CGS EF and to achieve CGS UNC 85 you will need (generally speaking)at least MS65 - ideally from PCGS.

ARGENTUMANDCOINS I tell you why (IMO!) but you won't like it: 1, if the dealers send their coins for CGS grading, most (not all but most) of their UNC coins will be returned as EF, some as AUNC but some also as VF55. The same applies to EF, VF coins etc. Just ask Bill who already submitted around 2000 coins, or Divemaster. I have exactly the same experience. As NUMISMATIST said : quote "In fact I would say MOST Large Auctioneers and MOST large dealers, many being BNTA members seriously overgrade these days". I can confirm this from my own experience. Now when I am more familiar with CGS grading it takes me just few seconds on the coin show to see that the offered UNC coin would never ever make even a basic UNC80 grade... So instead of making vast profits they would suffer vast losses. 2, lot (not all) of coin dealers are not interested in a transparent coin market. With slabbed coin you can’t buy the coin as about EF and sell it as almost UNC and make large profit. As one of many examples – just recently I have noticed Victorian YH Halfcrown , sold in recent DNW auction (where described as GEF and sold for around 800,- pounds) on Coin Dealer website - described as choice mint state with price tag of 1500,- pounds. So either the vendor or new buyer was ripped off. DNW is happy with their profit, dealer is very happy with his profit and the buyer??? This is happening all the time and you have to realise that not all coin collectors are as experienced as lot of members on this forum and that it takes years to learn. In the meantime you rely on coin dealers and if you are not experienced enough you buy choice mint state halfcrown for 1500,- …. I wish CGS was around when I started collecting 20 years ago. 3, I do not understand your comment about “auction prices realized by the sister company of the slabbing firmâ€. Are you suggesting that London Coins is bidding against London Coins just to spend 500,- pounds on a coin worth 50, - pounds to show the public how good it is to have coin slabbed??? Yes they offer lot of slabbed coins in their auctions but if I want to sell slabbed coin I would certainly ask London Coins because I am sure that collectors who are interested in slabs are keeping eye on their auctions.

Well ... maybe. But personally I'd have thought (that in the UK/Europe at least) a coin will find it's value dependant on what it is and the condition. I'd be surprised if many (any?) members here would pay any more just because a coin is slabbed. Amen. I've often considered slabbing some high grade but fairly common hammered coins for the US market but I cannot see a slab in the UK adding a significant percentage to the value or sale price. If you cannot see it I will give you self explanatory example: not so rare Decimal Twenty Pence undated mule S.4631A : Current population report: 275 coins graded, 11 rejected. UNC88 - 1x, UNC85-2x, UNC82-7x, UNC80-25x, AU78-34x, AU75-45x, EF70-65x, EF65-88x and EF60-8x. Number of coins sold in recent auctions in EF70 sold for around 50,- pounds, in AU75 for 55-65,- pounds, in AU78 for 65-70,- pounds (all without BP) Example in grade UNC 80 (LCA 135, 4/12/11, lot1116) sold for 85,- pounds + BP Example in grade UNC 82 (LCA 135, 4/12/11, lot1117) sold for 160,- pounds + BP Example in grade UNC 88 - finest known (LCA 137, 3/6/12, lot420) sold for 420,- pounds + BP I am sure the vendor was pleased he has had his coin slabbed...

As I've said before, I kinda feel that the problem with hammered is that a strict grade related to how much wear a coin has suffered over the years isn't always a very good indicator of whether the coin has 'eye appeal' (ie, whether someone would consider it an asset to their collection) or not. That's not to say there couldn't be benefits to slabbing (in addition to protecting the coin from damage) if a variety was correctly identified, but the main one of the buyer being confident about the reliability of the grading of the coin doesn't attract me much because I don't buy coins dependent on their grade. Plus there's that little niggle that, with a slab, you have the problem of if a coin came with old collectors' tickets, what do you do with them? AFAIK (from the one, previously PCGS slabbed, coin I own) US TPGS bin them. I've not bought a CGS slabbed coin, let alone one with tickets and provenance, so don't know how they would deal with it. Unslabbed coins, the tickets are just included in the envelope or 2"x2" and can then sit under the coin in your cabinet. I guess it would be possible to design a slab that could also hold coin tickets for us er .., traditionalists. If there was a market for such things. But as for coin envelopes (Norweb anyone?) ... Oh, and welcome Bill! Thanks for joining us - most enlightening! After providing evidence the provenance is recorded electronically and is available through "Coin Verification" on CGS website (you can see example below). However you have to keep old tickets separately. CGS Coin Verification Picture UIN 0012831 Coin Type HD.V1.1858.01 Origin Great Britain Description Halfpenny Victoria 1858 Variety 8 over 6 Standard References Peck 1547 Provenance Ex-Nicholson Collection BN371 2003 Ex-Colin Cooke 12/5/1983 Grade EF 70 Population Level 3 out of 4 Value £ 75

Hello Colin88 I was very surprised to learn about your experience. I always found CGS to be very helpful and professional. As far as I know the first two items on your list are true. However the third one is not (I am not doubting your phone call, just the fact itself) as people are dropping off coins for grading at their office all the time (as is the case with NGC and PCGS an appointment is required) and they take CGS consignments at most coins shows they do. I can confirm this from my personal experience. If I remember well DIVEMASTER even mentioned in another thread (CROWNS?) that before he had started having any coins graded by CGS he was able to book up to go and watch the grading process. IMO - if you have really high value coins (and you are going to sell them in auction) slabbing would add value and increase your profit. I would not be put off by one phone call!

Did you treat yourself with a nice coin this Christmas? Here is the coin I found under my X-mas tree... Enjoy the holidays and all the very best for 2013 to all forum members !

That's the last thing I want this Christmas

Hello Azda, the coin was graded as UNC 80. It has very good eye appeal displaying light grey and gold toning over original mint brilliance. IMO the coin hasn't achieved higher grade because of very slight cabinet friction on the obverse and weak reverse striking which only affects a few small parts of the central reverse design. Saying that the weak reverse striking is usual on this date and issue (reverse striking of the piece from forthcoming Herritage Auction – lot 20905, MS 65 PCGS - is even worse).

Coffin can be always removed, I care more about the coin... I just wondered how other collectors treated themselves this Christmas. I really did not mean to start another never ending discussion about "coffins". In the slab or not - for me it is always the same coin and I really do not care how other collectors store, handle and organize their collections.

You may or may not be aware that there are 2 varieties of 1915 Frathing: 1, Freeman 593A, Dies 1+A - a very scarce variety, having the 'TT' in 'Britt' closer together 2, Freeman 594, Dies 2+A (gap between TT of BRITT is wider (previously they almost touched) I am sure the slabbed Frathing you saw was Freeman 593A as Freeman 594 is valued by CGS in VF50 grade at 6,- pounds (= almost worthless as cost of slabbing is 12,- pounds). For your information I found one example of Freeman 593A sold by LCA as a raw coin in Auction 124, March 2009, lot 1374 – in VF grade it sold for 20,- pounds + buyers premium. Considering the cost of slabbing, 35,- pounds seems reasonable (not mentioning the fact that CGS grade VF 55 coin would be considered by many dealers as EF coin ...) I think Peter knows the two varieties of 1915 farthings - but you might like to look at this : http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1915-GEORGE-V-FARTHING-CGS-VF45-/190755678959?pt=UK_Coins_BritishMilled_RL&hash=item2c69ecaaef A CGS slabbed 1915 farthing in VF for £19 - the normal kind. Believe me, a VF Freeman 593A would fetch a lot more than £20, or even £35. Even years ago, before ChrisP took over, a VF example was listed at £60 in CCGB. The coin on Ebay is valued by CGS at 6,- pounds (as anybody can check on their website). It is not their fault that this seller is asking ridiculous price... ebay is full of overpriced raw coins as well.

You may or may not be aware that there are 2 varieties of 1915 Frathing: 1, Freeman 593A, Dies 1+A - a very scarce variety, having the 'TT' in 'Britt' closer together 2, Freeman 594, Dies 2+A (gap between TT of BRITT is wider (previously they almost touched) I am sure the slabbed Frathing you saw was Freeman 593A as Freeman 594 is valued by CGS in VF50 grade at 6,- pounds (= almost worthless as cost of slabbing is 12,- pounds). For your information I found one example of Freeman 593A sold by LCA as a raw coin in Auction 124, March 2009, lot 1374 – in VF grade it sold for 20,- pounds + buyers premium. Considering the cost of slabbing, 35,- pounds seems reasonable (not mentioning the fact that CGS grade VF 55 coin would be considered by many dealers as EF coin ...)

1. I don't think you will find many if at all on these forums 2. Grading isn't a precise science anyway - even professionals would differ by up to half a grade I do agree with your 'live and let live' attitude to slabs, but please don't assume that a professional grader is necessarily any better than a serious collector who's been learning it for years. Let me put it to you gently - I'd sooner trust the judgement of Rob and Derek (to pick just two) than a TPG who is mainly in it for the money, to sell slabs. I suspect lot of members on this forum just don't understand CGS grading process. Yes, a professional grader is not necessarily any better than a serious collector - but the difference is, that in CGS 2 graders have to refer to the extensive benchmark set of coins (I have seen some of these benchmark sets - they are stunning), each of which is allocated a unique number. When looking at such factors as striking, lustre, problems (for example, contact marks, stains), hairlines, haymarking, adjustment marks, cabinet friction etc, each grader compares the coin being graded to the relevant section of the benchmark set. When the benchmark coin that matches the aspect of the coin being graded is found, its unique number is fed into a computer. When all the factors have been entered, a programme that weights the numerous factors produces the numerical CGS UK grade. That is why their grading is so consistent and I exactly know what I can expect from coin graded UNC80, 85 or 88. Obviously nothing is perfect, however IMO this is by far the best attempt to reduce subjectivity when grading coins I have come across.. The sad fact is that most of the coins described by professional dealers as UNC will never make even the basic UNC80 grade... With the plethora of faked coins coming from Far East, the fact that CGS guarantee that the graded coin is genuine (or to pay the submitter the full market value of any non genuine English Milled coin that they may encapsulate) is quite reassuring for me as well.

You may or may not be aware that trays for slabbed coins are available even in the UK. I use SAFE trays, excellent quality. You can check: www.safealbums.co.uk/Zen/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=201_204_224&sort=20a&page=2.