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kildonan

Unidentified Variety
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Everything posted by kildonan

  1. Here you go - 1985 first. Also showing the listings of both.
  2. Sorry to put a spanner in the works! I don't think the SNC provenances are correct. I read your post and was looking through old catalogues etc. seeing if I could find anything, and checked the 1985 and 1986 SNC's. The only coins that match the description (type 7, both priced at £850) are May 1985 no. 3086, pictured on p.140, and Oct. 1986 no. 6944, pictured on p.283. Neither of these are your coin (yours is nicer). Perhaps the seller simply meant these were other examples of the same dies? But the Spink 117 lot 359 provenance is correct (confirmed by picture), as is the 2016 one from Spink listed by Rob.
  3. kildonan

    Commonwealth 'Overdates'

    Could it be that this die is known on 1651 coins? I'm not familiar enough with these halfcrowns, but perhaps someone has observed the die in its original form on other coin(s)?
  4. kildonan

    Charles I sixpence S.2821

    Any hammered sixpence or Charles I specialists? I'm interested in Spink variety S.2821 - this was originally listed as S.2848A before the sixpence series was re-numbered some years ago. Can anyone confirm when S.2848A first appeared in the standard catalogue? I haven't kept any old copies unfortunately. I seem to recall that initially, an inner circle was listed for one side only (can't remember which), before being changed to inner circle both sides soon afterwards and ever since, including when re-numbered to S.2821. The question arises because I'd like to know what this coin looks like, and how it differs from S.2820. My assumption for many years has been that type S.2848A / S.2821 was introduced to account for the previously unpublished sixpence variety in the Shuttlewood collection (SNC June 2001, HS0677) - hence the interest in knowing when Spink first included it. That coin has now re-appeared in the latest part of the Hulett collection being sold by DNW next week (lot 96). But there is no reference to its Shuttlewood provenance and it is listed as S.2820. I queried this with DNW but have had no reply. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? If anyone has any idea what S.2821 is, if it isn't this variety, then I'd be very interested to hear your opinion.
  5. kildonan

    Charles I sixpence S.2821

    Taking Rob's suggestion, I've done a bit more work on this. I've taken the best quality online image of the groat I could find (as I don't own an example) and combined this with an image of the 6d (which is in my collection), with the surrounding details removed. I've had to assume that the busts are identically sized, so re-sized the images accordingly. Of course, this may not be true, but without an example of the groat it's the best I can do. These images have then been rotated to ensure accurate alignment and overlaid. The results are shown here - overlaid images ranging from the 6d bust on the left, progressively becoming more transparent towards the 'pure' groat bust on the right. Comments: (i) it confirms Rob's suspicion about the head and crown - the match is almost perfect; (ii) I'm tempted to say that the shoulders are actually the same - the basic size / shape is the same, as is some of the drapery detail, but there are small differences in outline - definitely more 'structure' on the base edge on the groat compared to the 6d - could this just be that the punch was reworked before use on the 6d?; (iii) one difference is the 'lump' in the top of the hair just below the centre of the crown band on the groat. All examples of the groat that I can find online display this defect, so it was presumably present in the groat die for all strikings. But there is no sign of the defect on the 6d - so I'd conclude that the punch itself was 'perfect' at the time it was used to make the groat die, but that the die itself became damaged. When the punch was resurrected some years later for the 6d die, the die defect was no longer present? Overall I think this is very strong evidence that the groat punch was re-used some years later. I confess that I know very little about the pattern series mm. bell. All I can see is reference to possible attribution to E. Greene, but little else. Is anyone aware of a paper that deals with these? As to Rob's other point about this bust /die turning up on a pure mm. eye coin - this must be a possibility. But in all the years since I first knew of this coin's existence (when originally published in 2001), I have kept a close watch for others as I am a hammered sixpence specialist. But the only other example I have ever seen is that pictured here, so this is a very rare coin indeed. It may be a long wait!
  6. kildonan

    Charles I sixpence S.2821

    Thanks Rob. Here is a composite photo showing the recently auctioned Hulett / Shuttlewood coin top left; another coin (same die, to allow more missing detail to be seen) top right; an example of the small 3a bust sixpence, mm bell bottom right, and the pattern groat mm bell bottom left. I think this shows that there is a lot of similarity between the bust on the sixpence of interest and the 3a bust, fitting with the Spink description. I wonder now if the original description 'like the small 3a portrait, no inner circle' referred to the coin that S.2848A / S.2821 was like, rather than a description of the coin itself? This reference was soon changed to the current one '4.5 var., small 3a type bust, double-arched crown, inner circle both sides, mm. sun (over eye)' The pattern groat is included here because the comment in SNC 2001 referenced the similarity of the sixpence bust to that on the pattern groat. (Is it similar, or actually the same?) The S.2820 sixpence with the 4.5 bust (not shown here) appears to have two bust varieties, both of which have a single arched crown and bear little resemblance to the 3a bust. So to address Rob's point, I feel that the coin of interest is far more similar to a 3a bust than 4.5 (or any earlier type 4 bust for that matter). Overall it seems likely to me that the coin described as S.2848A / S.2821 is this coin. Its (final) description matches the coin well, and its appearance in the 2003 catalogue fits quite nicely with its emergence in SNC during 2001, where it was described as apparently unpublished. Presumably it was recognised too late to include in the 2002 edition, but added the next year.
  7. kildonan

    1655 sixpence

    I'm trying to find pictures of Commonwealth 1655 sixpences, partly to prove / disprove that my own collection coin is or is not really of this date (unclear final digit). I have only a handful of pictures (below) - does anyone have any others that they could share? - DNW, Bole collection Pt 1 lot 1641; same coin later as Bole pt 5 lot 1444 - Bonhams Clarendon collection pt 2 (2006) lot 1557; same coin also Spink 55 lot 73; Lockett lot 2612 and ex-Carlyon-Britton - Spink 154 (Manville 2001) lot 50 - Spink 18004 (2018) lot 433
  8. kildonan

    1655 sixpence

    Thanks both - this has settled it for me - a real 1655 :-)
  9. kildonan

    1655 sixpence

    Here's the reverse of my coin. When I bought it, I was happy it was really 1655 rather than 1653 or an artefact of the double striking at the date, but wanted to locate a die duplicate on a definite 1655 to be sure. Although I had pictures of the coin posted by Coys55 from the earlier sales catalogues, I'd discounted mine as a die duplicate (partly because those images were much lower quality than that just posted, but also because of perceived differences). Lots of similarities, such as the die defect to lower left of the LH shield cross centre; the 2 spots in the field above that cross, positioning and shape of most letters... What had put me off previously was the position of the 'W' relative to RH shield base. But now I think this is an artefact of the double striking evident on Coys' coin at the shield base? It often strikes me as odd how some parts of the design are unmoved whilst others show a shift during double striking, in a way that can be hard to understand. If my coin is the same die I think it possibly is a later strike where additional die damage has occurred such as within LH shield upper left quadrant? Any thoughts?
  10. kildonan

    1655 sixpence

    Thanks - the image seems to have disappeared since I saw it last night? This is (or was) the Clarendon piece, lovely image :-) Interestingly, this is the one that I believe I have a reverse die duplicate of. I'll get a photo of my coin and post it shortly.
  11. kildonan

    Charles I mule sixpence

    There is a Charles I mule sixpence listed in the preview for the next DNW auction (sixpence obverse, double crown reverse), found in 2014. The description states that it is probably the second known example after the Brooker / Bole specimen (which appears to be a die duplicate of the new coin). But in Francis's 1919 BNJ (vol. 15, Plate 1) article, he shows a picture of another such coin (looks like a die duplicate again) and this is listed as belonging to Col. Morrieson. So perhaps the new one is the third known example? Does anyone have the catalogue for Col. Morrieson's auction (Sotheby 1933)? Is this coin listed?
  12. kildonan

    Charles I mule sixpence

    Thanks Rob. It sounds like it probably didn't make it to the sale, so must have been disposed of earlier? I'll pass it on to DNW and see if they take note.
  13. The fair is on 3 floors with the coins on the upper two (stamps on the ground floor). There is a lift. There are seats dotted around the dealers tables although generally quite limited. The bar is situated next to the coin section and this has seating. It's always a good fair, if you make it I'm sure you'll have a great time.
  14. kildonan

    Morbiducci Prova

    Hi - I can scan a copy of this and send as a PDF. Please PM me with your e-mail address and I'll send it on.
  15. kildonan

    Spink Numismatic Circular Dec 1986

    The listing reads "8485 William and Mary. Tin Halfpenny 1689 BMC561. Rarely seen in any condition considerably eroded, otherwise fair/F £300" I think they missed a full stop between 'condition' and 'considerably'? The coin is pictured too.
  16. Hi - this is a halfgroat (twopence) as indicated by the 2 dots behind the bust. Mintmark looks like tun so would place issue between 1592-1594.
  17. I see what you mean - it does look very 'soapy' in the new photo. I don't have any forgeries of Elizabeth I coins (at least none that I know of!) - I suppose I'd be potentially interested in contemporary forgeries, but haven't given it much thought to be honest - I'm trying to get the real ones first...! I'm sure I've seen a few in catalogues etc. listed as such - is this a particular interest of yours?
  18. Not sure if you've seen the BNJ article on the Elizabeth I milled coinage in the BNJ, 1983? You can find the link on the BNS website. There are photos of all the known dies (at that time) including yours - type 23-R2. It was used only with one obverse die and clearly shows the defects you show. If you PM me I have several photos of coins using this die that I've accumulated over the years. Usually the die orientation on these milled sixpences is 180degrees (6h) but I've seen / own a few that are a little different. How large is the rotation on your piece? The weight seems a little low, but other than that I can't see anything obviously wrong with the coin - perhaps its suspect nature is more obvious in the hand?
  19. Rob - I'm sorry to say that I don't have an example of the coin(!) I assume that you already have the photo of L-57 from Allen's BNJ paper? Other images of the dies are: Lockett pt IV: Lot 2552 is Allen L-rev unpublished; Lot 2553 is Allen J-57 Rees-Jones (SCA 117) Lot 368 - Allen L-rev unpublished (not the Lockett coin) If you don't have these catalogues please PM me and I'll get them scanned
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