Generic Lad

Really wouldn't surprise me (though I'm not sure if the 5p figure is correct). A copper (up until 1982 when they produced both the 95% copper penny and the modern mostly zinc penny produced until today) US penny is worth about 2.2 cents. And there are people who have built sorters to automatically sort between the worthless zinc cents and the copper pennies. The main problem with it in the US is you can't legally melt down the pennies so you have to sell it to people who believe the melt ban will be lifted meaning that you really only get 1.5 cents or so per copper penny if you can find a buyer. Not sure what the rules are with British coins, but if you can find a buyer and an easy way to sort them I say go for it, just like the generation before culled out silver coins from circulation, today people can cull copper coins. In the US finding copper (and silver) coins usually works like this: 1) Buy a box of coins ($25 pennies, $100 nickels, $250 dimes, $500 quarters, $500 halves) 2) Unwrap and sort the coins 3) Take the rejects back to a different bank, dump them in a coin counter (or re-roll) 4) Get cash for those coins 5) Go back to step 1 I'm not sure what the banking infrastructure looks like in the UK, but so long as you can do it and find a buyer, it might be a good way to make some extra cash for hobbies.

There is also ugly toned and artifically toned coins, so do beware. Generic Lads link seems to be an artifically toned coin Yeah, the buffalo is most likely artificially toned Though NGC is supposed to have a fancy machine to detect artificially toned coins I don't think it really works, just type in "rainbow toned coins" and you'll find plenty of NGC/PCGS coins that are obviously artificially toned In general, I find that American collectors will pay extra for toning (fake or otherwise) while British collectors are more apt to look at the details remaining in the coin and wild toning detracts from British coins when compared to US coins where people will pay extra for "rainbow toning"

That is a form of toning, eventually impurities in the air and impurities in the silver will cause the coin to discolor. Old coins were often stored in cardboard or paper containing acid, this left many coins with spectacular toning. Cleaning a coin will strip it of its toning and will reduce its value, good toning can add tens or even hundreds of dollars/pounds to a coin. Beware though, some coins are artificially toned and are considered "doctored" by collectors however detecting which coins are legitimate and those that are artificially toned is hard. Some collectors prefer "blast white" uncleaned examples with no toning while others prefer a nicely toned coin like the Florin in this thread. A "blast white" uncleaned coin is generally more desirable than a blackened or grey coin, but an uncleaned grey or blackened coin is better than a coin dipped or cleaned to get a "blast white" appearance. Some attractively coins that show old toning were offered in the recent Goldberg auction such as these posted below: http://64.60.141.195/photos/69jpegs/196103.jpg In general, (alloyed) silver will tone fairly easily (and copper can tone, but it usually just darkens and "red" specimens are considered to be the most attractive if uncleaned), copper-nickel can tone but not very easily and is usually only seen on coins part of old collections (see http://www.ebay.com/itm/1919-5c-NGC-MS64-STAR-Electric-Lemonade-Toned-Buffalo-/200649229115?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item2eb7a0433b for a nice example of copper-nickel toning), pure gold does not tone but sometimes the copper or silver in gold alloys can cause it to tone.

That's a nice coin, and attractive toning too. For the price I'd say you did very well!

People with cash to spare have lately been going for their ABCDs (anything Bernanke can't destroy) historically the remedy in high inflation periods like this one is to put cash in real estate... Not so much anymore. In comparison to US coins, British coins seem undervalued, especially to a US buyer who equates old with valuable. We live in a world where investors are paying the Swiss government to take their money and bond yields are negative! The rush to get rid of excess cash has led a lot of investors to pay silly money for coins. Of course then there are the serious collectors bidding against these investors too. Whether these high prices will continue remains to be seen though. Is this the beginning of a temporary "bubble" of interest in British coins? Or is this simply the new normal? And what will be of interest next? Will it be a niche of British/European coins such as Maundy sets or celtic coins? Or will it be an entirely new field like modern Chinese commemorative coins? Will the flood of commemoratives from the US Mint, Royal Mint and other mints around the world implode the hobby like it did for stamps? Or will it fuel more collectors?

Um, "no" to what, exactly? As to what books you get, it very much depends what your interests are. Seaby/Spink is always good as a reference, though the more recent, the more varieties are in them. For hammered silver you need North, for milled you need English Silver Coinage, for most varieties since 1816 you need Davies, and for a near complete micro-varieties of the 20th Century you need Dave Groom's book. For copper and bronze, Peck is the royal standard, for bronze it's Freeman, for bronze pennies it's Gouby, and Dave G also has a 20C bronze book too. Then there are Seaby standards for Roman and Greek, though Rotographic also do useful references for Roman, George III, banknotes, etc. For tokens there is Dalton & Hamer but an edition of Seaby Copper Coins includes tokens too. Spink only took over in the mid-90s. before then it was the Seaby Standard Catalogue, and you should be able to find a predecimal edition on eBay for only a few £. Thanks, I'll keep an eye out for them. And yes, there are quite a few libraries around here but most have very little when it comes to British coins. My local library belongs to a network of about 50 of them in the same geographic area and the only British coin reference books are: 2 copies of the 1995 coincraft, a handful of outdated "world coin" books including a single copy of Krause, and.... that's it. No Spinks, and no specialty references. The university I go to does for some odd reason have a copy of Peck (and only Peck, no other British coin reference books) but I'm back home for the summer now. There are a few libraries in other towns not part of the network but won't let you get a card unless you live near there (because you'd be paying property taxes for the upkeep of the library if you lived nearby) and the nearest one of them is about an hours drive away. For US coins, there are books left and right including various specialty references at libraries but no such luck for British coins.

This isn't a laugh like most of them, being as it is (reasonably) priced and such but the obverse is just hilariously bad. http://www.ebay.com/itm/GEORGE-II-HALF-GUINEA-COIN-WEIGHT-/280836444700?pt=UK_Coins_BritishMilled_RL&hash=item416328121c I know coin weights aren't great at the best of times, but I think this one takes the cake!

Well, I was looking through my collection and came across this 1694 farthing I got a while back and as I was looking at it closer I noticed that it appeared as if the last "A" in Britannia was missing the cross-bar, and the first "A" does too, but that part of the coin is so dark and worn that you have to tilt it towards the light, to see what is the metal and what is the corrosion. What do you all think. If it is an inverted "V" how much is it worth? I'm assuming next to nothing being as the coin is in absolute crap condition. Apologies for the terrible pictures.

Agreed - and being published annually, it's more up to date too. Under a fiver on amazon! I think I will get a copy. Does anyone know what the release date will be for the 2012 edition? Save me buying two if its out soon. Chris Perkins the owner of this site can only tell you that. I can't see a 2012 edition coming out this year....but I'm sure Chris will confirm. The information on rarities and key dates won't change. Quite ironic. I was looking at numismatic literature on Amazon and found the 2009 edition on there used for 76 cents with $3.99 shipping and bought it about 3 days ago. And speaking of which, any other good (cheap!, yes this means no Peck ) reference books to get? So far I have: Spinks (a few editions, newest 2009), Coincraft (1997 edition I believe), quite a few "world coin" general reference books, quite a few US books ranging from general (Red Book) to specific (pattern coins and civil war tokens), and whenever it arrives in my mailbox, Collector Coins of Great Britain On my watchlist are, England's Striking History, a copy of Freeman, a copy of Peck (I can always hope I can find one at a used bookstore or library sale!) and also I'd like to find a cheap copy of Spinks from before decimalization just to see the commentary and the prices in LSD Any other glaring omissions?

That's odd... I can't edit my post... Anyways, the 1915 ended up being the widely spaced variety. Ah well.

Thanks for all the advice, I did actually manage to get a 1915 Farthing yesterday so I'm going to have to go try and see what variety it is.

Well, from what I can tell the type of the slab checks out alright, the green label of that style does correspond to the reverse used. From what I've read, the best way to compare genuine and fakes is from the font size, which of course is quite difficult because few are the same size as the eBay picture. This entire process highlights the main problems with slabbed coins and why eBay's policy of increasingly going to slabbed coins is a bad idea. 1) With a few exceptions, you can't get photos of the coins. This coin in question has so many identifying features that had PCGS had a high resolution photo of the coins they graded that you could access by looking up the cert # this case would be solved in 5 seconds with no doubt if the coin was fake or genuine. Out of all my slabbed coins, only my (quite overpriced) double-denarius has any photos when you go to the grader's (NGC's) website. 2) It makes selling fakes easy because people's guard is let down both buyers and dealers. Unless the person in question was an expert in half-guinea die varieties, the average coin dealer would simply type in the coin's cert #, see that the cert number was the same as the type of coin and buy it. Sadly few would question if it was genuine, by relying on slabs you've taken something that is fairly hard to counterfeit, particularly if you see it in person (a coin) and made something easy to counterfeit (a slab of plastic, a hologram and a piece of paper). By the time someone notices the coin is counterfeit, it might have changed hands three or four times making the counterfeiter impossible to find. After all, legitimate coin dealers can be fooled quite easily. 3) It adds needless expense. If scammers can create fake slabs, the next step is preventing counterfeits by essentially "slabbing slabs" which is what services such as CAC does. I'm assuming this will be the next thing eBay will require, that all coins be slabbed and all slabbed coins be re-certified. 4) In the end, we are breeding collectors who cannot grade for themselves, collectors who cannot detect counterfeits themselves. Eye appeal will be destroyed in the name of "net grade" a beautifully toned Morgan dollar that NGC calls a MS-64 will be replaced with a preference for a dull grey dollar that NGC calls a MS-65. We will soon be collectors not of coins, but of paper, plastic and stickers.

Yes, I was hoping I was not the only one. The rim beads remind me too much of some counterfeit US trade dollars I've seen. And the plating seems to be coming off at a weird edge. I also find it odd that with such massive pitting on the coat of arms that PCGS didn't put environmental damage on there. It looks like someone took a leather punch to it. I'm trying to find more information on PCGS slabs to see if the type is authentic (right label and right reverse) but can't seem to find much information on the older style ones like this. I'm much more knowledgeable about NGC than PCGS but surely the information has to be someplace.

The certification lookup shows that there is a population of 2 in AU-50 I find this coin unusual for the same reasons that everyone else does: It appears to be overgraded. I would say EF-45 (using the American grading) would be an alright grade (but still a bit high). There is no way this coin is borderline uncirculated. The wreath on the obverse is worn nearly flat, the buckle on the garter looks "mushy", there appears to be massive pitting on the reverse on the top part of the coat of arms. The bottom beads on the reverse look "mushy", etc. Not to mention the coin looks plated. When it comes down to it, is it possible this is a coin in a fake slab?

That is precisely what is so worrying about the current state of the western world. There is absolutely no incentive to save. A savings account won't keep up with inflation, neither will a CD or government bonds. In the US you can "save" by putting money in an individual retirement account (IRA) which (in the most common structures) is tax free until you take out money when it is taxed as income. There are 2 problems to this though, first, the chances of taxes decreasing is slim. Why would I pay a higher tax rate in the future rather than a smaller tax rate now? And it leaves the government open to raid it for free money or to force you to make "investments" in treasury bonds and the like. The dilemma is, as a young person where do you put your savings where they will grow. A savings account is a guaranteed loss, a CD is a guaranteed loss, an IRA is (most likely) going to be a loss. The stock markets are manipulated by those in power (both government and government-sponsored private sector). Real estate prices are low, but few banks want to loan money to purchase it and naturally I don't have the cash to buy it outright, plus prices seem to be still falling in some areas. Outside of creating a startup in a third-world country or being incredibly lucky there simply seems to be no place to put cash aside from in precious metals. Hi, generic lad, I'm really so impressed with your capacity to speak authoritatively in these matters. It intrigues me enough to enquire, if I may, as to your knowledge base? Please don't misunderstand me in any way, I have absolutely no knowledge of these things myself, only the intelligence to question and assimilate information that I'm presented with! I find your arguments persuasive, but have long since abandoned rhyme without reason so, if your findings have come from a long-time, self-taught, interest in this field, I salute you, and if they are more conventionally academic pronouncements, that too I respect, I'm just genuinely interested in the journey you has Most of it has come from various sources online, along with some of my friends who live (or have lived) abroad. Most of it though has come from deduction from economic statistics. Take for example the US inflation rate, which is officially measured at ~2.30% (see http://www.clevelandfed.org/research/data/us-inflation/mcpi.cfm) now of course that doesn't measure the real inflation rate because the CPI (Consumer Price Index) has been actively manipulated by using a "basket" of items to show that the US has a lower inflation rate. For example, rather than measuring the price of, say, a pound of beef, the meats section would allow the government to cherry-pick the lowest price of beef, pork, or chicken (see http://www.shadowstats.com/article/no-438-public-comment-on-inflation-measurement for some information about it) and using the older official method of measuring the CPI US inflation is close to 6% (see http://www.shadowstats.com/article/no-438-public-comment-on-inflation-measurement ) Of course CDs and saving account rates are different depending on the location and bank, but using one of the major national banks over here, Bank of America, it shows that their "featured" CDs have an annual yield of .45% (see http://www.bankofamerica.com/deposits/checksave/index.cfm?template=cd_10&context=tabpage_Rates_Fees ) and a savings account has an annual yield of .05% (see http://www.bankofamerica.com/deposits/checksave/index.cfm?template=regular_savings_account ) Since that is much less than both the official inflation rate and the older-style inflation rate, anytime you put money in a CD, you are taking a guaranteed loss in purchasing power. Of course there are benefits in saving, especially if you have any emergencies come up but I simply don't see how "saving for retirement" in cash, CDs and savings accounts as being a useful investment. I also enjoy reading ZeroHedge for economic news ( http://www.zerohedge.com/ ) even if it can be a bit alarmist at times I certainly don't know everything and I'm sure if I knew more about finance I could find a few bright spots to put my cash, but I know enough about history to know that when you print money left and right (like what the Federal Reserve has done see: http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/BASE/ ) bad things happen. Rome didn't collapse in a day and neither will the US and Europe but unless something major happens, I can see the west entering an even more sharp decline and another region taking over the spot that the west has held since the 1700s as the most prosperous and most free region.

That is precisely what is so worrying about the current state of the western world. There is absolutely no incentive to save. A savings account won't keep up with inflation, neither will a CD or government bonds. In the US you can "save" by putting money in an individual retirement account (IRA) which (in the most common structures) is tax free until you take out money when it is taxed as income. There are 2 problems to this though, first, the chances of taxes decreasing is slim. Why would I pay a higher tax rate in the future rather than a smaller tax rate now? And it leaves the government open to raid it for free money or to force you to make "investments" in treasury bonds and the like. The dilemma is, as a young person where do you put your savings where they will grow. A savings account is a guaranteed loss, a CD is a guaranteed loss, an IRA is (most likely) going to be a loss. The stock markets are manipulated by those in power (both government and government-sponsored private sector). Real estate prices are low, but few banks want to loan money to purchase it and naturally I don't have the cash to buy it outright, plus prices seem to be still falling in some areas. Outside of creating a startup in a third-world country or being incredibly lucky there simply seems to be no place to put cash aside from in precious metals.

Yep, keep your bullion and your collector coins far apart! What makes a good bullion buy does not make for a good collector coin purchase. If you mix the two you will be unhappy in both areas. I've made that mistake a few times, I've started out buying mostly bullion but I've been trying to establish a nice numismatic collection.

Yes, I do think if gold continues this trend of dropping I'll pick up a nice (half) sovereign, I'd like to get one with a shield reverse or perhaps get some Mexican 2 gold peso coins. Fiat currencies have historically collapsed and in those collapses those who have owned hard assets such as gold and silver have emerged stronger or at least did not get burned as bad as those who have their savings in paper money. I don't view gold and silver as an investment. Instead, I view them more as my savings account as a way to hold wealth no matter how much Bernake decides to fire up the printing press or how many more European countries will go bankrupt. I'd love to invest in more "productive" assets such as stocks and bonds but the market has become so regulated, so political that a stroke of the pen can ruin successful companies. For example, anytime there is an oil spill no matter how much or how little the company was at fault, political opinion turns against them and there is a desire to "punish" the "greedy" company. Companies that develop life-saving drugs are especially affected, if a promising drug gets denied by the FDA or its European counterparts, millions of dollars go down the drain due to bureaucracy even if the drug was effective and had minimal side effects. Facebook could get slaughtered if political opinion turns against it and new US and European privacy laws go into effect targeting its advertising policies. Transferring wealth from fiat currencies to gold and silver seems to be the only option right now. The US is essentially bankrupt, it is only through the constant raising of the "debt ceiling" that prevents the US from defaulting on its obligations. The EU is well... the EU. The same problems that have plagued the EU and the US apply also to the UK and European nations not in the EU. Asia, Africa and Central/South America seems to be the only options and unless you have contacts over there, you can easily be burnt, especially if you don't understand the language or culture (which I do not).

Does anyone know if there is a bun head penny album with all the dates/mintmarks listed? I'd prefer something like a Dansco album where you put the coin in and you can see both sides that will preserve the coin rather than a Whitman folder where you can only see one side and the coins get discolored and ruined for long term storage. I can find Australian pennies on the Dansco site which while they should be the same diameter, it wouldn't have the right dates/mintmarks. I don't need anything too very fancy, but I'd like a nice way to keep track of the pennies I have/need in an organized fashion without dealing with cardboard 2x2s or paper envelopes in a way that is safe for long term storage of the coins.

Thanks for all the replies, I'm really only looking to do a date/mintmark run of circulated coins (and even that will be nearly impossible to complete) and not worry about varieties so much (although I will check mine for any rarities!) as just a date/mintmark run the same way that one might complete a set of Olympic 50p coins or a set of Lincoln wheat cents.

I think it looks a bit better than the 1965 Churchill crown myself!

All western currencies (especially the US dollar and the Euro) are declining fast and until hyperinflation comes and the currency collapses I can't see any end to it. However, if the penny does end up going away I can see a huge opportunity to make a lot of cash by scrapping the copper ones. In the US it is currently illegal to melt down pennies but people have been able to sell them on eBay to speculators who believe the melt ban will be lifted and get 1.5-2 cents per penny, when combined with an automatic sorter such as a ryedale it can be rather profitable. Of course, in the UK one only needs to get a magnet to distinguish between the two.

What exactly distinguishes a "VIP" proof from a normal proof? Am I correct in saying that a "VIP" proof is frosted unlike a normal proof and that is the only difference?

Does anyone know how I would go about getting just bulk scrap hammered because I want to get better at attributing them. Preferably just bulk lots that contain assorted coins (Tealby, long cross, short cross, Tudor, etc.) in attributable but not great condition (cut, corroded, etc.) from a US dealer (because international shipping isn't cheap). I've found some ones on eBay but the shipping is too high compared to the coin price ($2-3 for a cut penny isn't bad, but paying nearly $12 for shipping on that same coin is...)

Most US collectors/dealers unless they specialize in British coins (haven't met a dealer who really has, although I'm in the center of the country and not on the east or west coats) would simply pay scrap for them or sell them as a curiosity. I don't think I've met a dealer who has marked any of his stuff with even a Spinks number instead its all been Krause numbers. Foreign coins are either marked for insanely cheap (they don't realize they have a key date or a silver coin) or overpriced (this is especially the case with coins dated in the 1700s or before, and especially with King George (I, II or III) coppers)) I'd imagine that if you wanted to spend the time going to dealer after dealer you could find quite a few key dates/varieties especially for pennies, but high grade or older stuff would be quite hard to find unless you went to a dealer who specialized in British coins.